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UK RAIL GREAT COMMENTARY AND ANALYSIS ... Green Signals The Avanti West Coast 07h00 Ghost Train to London… nearly PLAY YOUTUBE VIDEO Original article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUGLBF0FuHY
The Avanti West Coast 07h00 Ghost Train to London… nearly Green Signals Dec 4, 2025 20.5K subscribers Green Signals Avanti West Coast is forced to run a ‘Ghost’ Manchester to London train… until they weren’t, when the decision was reversed! Richard eats some humble pie over the fares freeze last week – and we update on how much it’s going to cost the taxpayer And after months of speculation, Alex Hynes is announced as the new CEO of DFTO In this episode: 00:00 Intro 00:29 The 0700 Ghost Train that wasn’t 17:42 Fares freeze update 34:45 Alex Hynes is appointed to DFTO 41:06 Thanks to Supporters 42:54 Railway News Round-up 42:59 GBRf Class 99s arrive 43:51 West of England service restored 44:51 Dean Forest Railway RAIB report 46:14 TfGM plans for Denton 48:11 AECOM appointed to take forward Leamside Line plans 50:24 The Quiz 52:53 LNER Grantham station Azuma planter Link to buy The British Railways Stories Vols 1, 2, 3, & 4 from Strathwood https://strathwood.co.uk/products/a-f... 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The views, opinions or claims of any advertiser or commercial third party that may from time to time appear on, or be referenced by us, in any of our podcast shows or videos should not be taken to reflect our own views or opinions in any way. How this was made Auto-dubbed Audio tracks for some languages were automatically generated. Learn more Peter Burgess COMMENTARY Peter Burgess Transcript 0:00 Intro And coming up on this week's show, Avanti West Coast are forced to run a Manchester London ghost train until they weren't when the decision was reversed. Richard eats some humble pie over the fairs freeze last week. And after months of speculation, Alex Hines is announced as the new CEO of DFTO. Welcome to Green Signals from me, Nigel Harris, and from me, Richard Baler. Well, just when 0:30 The 0700 Ghost Train that wasn’t you thought you'd heard it all, it turns out no, you haven't. I referred to the news that broke over the weekend that Avanti West Coast would still be running its flagship 0700 2-hour express from Manchester Picadilli to London, Houston, arriving at 0859, which makes it very popular from the new timetable this month. But passengers can't use it or wouldn't be able to use it. It was feared the train would instead run with a full catering crew on board, but as empty coaching stock before forming the important 0930 London Houston to 1:04 Glasgow. Mainstream media and social media and everybody else went berserk about the ghost train with the overwhelming reaction being one of derision. Richard was invited to shed light on this on the radio for today program where he used the word bonkers. Loads of others piled in and by midafter afternoon after another appearance by Richard on TV news bulletins, the OR caved under the pressure and its bonkers decision was reversed. How was this madness ever allowed to happen? Great outcome in the end, but seriously, Richard, please shed light for us. Well, we can we can look at a little bit of the background now, which of course we've had time to dig into a lot more deeply since the the excitement of earlier in the week. And it was it was exciting and it was quite dramatic as well. It was uh and the speed of it was um and 2:02 we'll come back to that because actually I think that probably did show the if all decisions could be that quick, we'd be on I think they did the right thing, right? and we'll come back to that. Um I think it's worth bearing in mind that you know this train this 7:00 train has run for a long time. So precoid the so-called VHF timet which we've talked about on the show before we have on the west coast um had three trains an hour and they still run in the same sort of slots now. I think it's 15 35 or 55. But this there was there was this 7:00 train and it was their flagship. It was the marquee as you described it. Um so two hours is pretty well it was a minute less than two hours booked wasn't it? Yeah, pickup stock. I think it actually um back in the day was maybe two minutes under, but it's whatever, right? But pickup only at Stockport used. Yeah. Um so that was fine and it was very profitable and very popular. Then along comes COVID and everything goes sideways, right? And the timet gets thinned out quite rightly and this trains a casualty of that process. Um 3:03 now interesting point and this becomes very relevant. um Avanti West Coast had a track access agreement that needed to be replaced in 2022 and bearing in mind at that time they were building back from co Mhm. And also they had some very challenging uh that's probably the most diplomatic word I can use resourcing and crewing issues they had to deal with right so they couldn't put everything back all at once and they were planning to introduce Evers driver training so it was quite complicated time so what happened during 22 there was a thing called an ESG which is a an event steering group which was basically a a collaborative approach by all the industry to come together and say how are we going to make what what do we want to do with the west coast uh title how are we going to recover how we're going to recover, how we going to put it in place. And interestingly, although the 7:00 train was in the working papers for that, it didn't get into the uh track access agreement that 4:01 got signed in December 22 um as a firm right is my understanding. It actually came in as effectively as a contingent right. Yeah. Can I just quickly ask this just occurred to me why? Because you said it's a flagship train. Why was it put contingent rather than why did it not go back as a um that's an extremely interesting question I suspect as a combination of factors which is the market had changed was it going to recover in the same way it's very much a business train I'm making this stuff up by the way I I don't absolutely it literally just occurred to me but I think it's a I think it's a fairly reasonable assumption that you know such a such a businessoriented train might possibly not be the you know whatever it did it didn't come as a as a firm right sorry interrupt and there is a fear in all of this over capacity and performance right which is which is a bit of an issue because don't forget open access took the opportunity of a thinned out timet to pile in with a load of stuff including for instance the uh first lumo service that's going to go 5:01 to sterling which has actually you know made life a little bit more challenging but the really interesting thing about all of this Nigel is despite all of that that uh and the fact that the time the train the 7:00 was bid as a contingent right in uh 2020 December 24 and May 25 and got into the timetable. So it's that's why it's running today with NR support and the bid to put it in the December 25 timetable had network rails support because they knew it was running anyway. The ORR took the decision not to include it. Right. So that that is so kind of that's a bit of the background. I mean there's more but there you go. So that's that's for starters. But you know, we always reserve the right to disagree with the decision, but for God's sake, I mean, it just doesn't make sense, does it? The service is going to run anyway as empty stock, it's going to have a catering crew on it. Had it been a train which stopped everywhere, you could understand them thinking, well, let's take it out. But 6:02 he only stops at Stockport and it's running anyway. What possible few seconds advantage? How is it a performance risk? Or I I just don't get it. Did they even bother to find out? Well, I think one of the things that's quite interesting is that um the last couple of days there's been an awful lot of sort of social media about about this. I think it's I think I'm right in saying that although in December it's going to become the 9:30 to Glasgow. At the moment it actually goes back to Manchester. Right. So there's a there's a bit of sort of there's as ever there's a bit of detail that's um quite quite fascinating. But um it you're absolutely right. It's got to run as ECS because wherever it's going to afterwards and the plan from December was it went to Glasgow. It's got to get to Houston, right? There's no doubt about that. So, there are a couple of things that are worth picking up here. Okay. So, cuz it's not the only train that Avanti have been denied the um access rights to use. There are two Chester Stroke Holly heads and I think there's 7:00 um a Blackpool. Blackpool or a Blackpool? No, no, the Well, that's Blackpool. Sorry. Yeah, it's a Blackpool. So what happened was during August uh Avanti and Network Rail went to a thing called the access disputes committee and basically it's it's it's almost like a tribunal where they it's quite a formal thing and you can actually see the minutes of it. They're available to read um and they and basically Avanti were saying we want this and you've said no network rail we want this and you've said no. we want this. He said no. And they they went and it's quite an interesting dialogue and and it's fascinating to read and it talks about the the Blackpools and it talks about the Chesters and so on. But the one thing it notes is that no one's disagreeing over the 7:00 from Manchester to London. It's okay, right? Because it's got to run anyway. So that's that's important because the first avanti get to hear about the fact that they can't run the 7:00 Manchester London is when the or send them a 8:01 directions letter the decision letter with directions on the 22nd of September and it's an extraordinary letter and I'm just going to show you just tell you a couple of bits. This is the decision letter of the 22nd of September from somebody called Louise uh Bby who's the senior access executive at the OR. And it includes for instance um this in its final representations Network Rail stated it was only partly supportive of this application. That's for all the trains not just the 7:00. It agreed to the Manchester to Houston and the and the Liverpool to Houston right the Manchester to Houston because the service would have to run as an empty coaching stock movement even if it was not operating as a passenger train. Okay. So that's so the ORR know understood that they know it's running as ECS and did it anyway. Further on they say the RR refer to the fact that the that that the the network is congested. They say on the 6th of May 2020 network rail formally declared the west coast mainline south fast lines from London to Leight and Buzzard as congested infrastructure. Right. 9:05 And they concluded no significant additional capacity could be utilized between Camden South and Lebanon junction without harming performance. you listening uh Rishi Sonak and Andrew Gilligan, right? Um but then they go on to say the restructured December 22 timetable produced an additional hourly path between London, Houston and Liverpool whilst also providing for five paths a day between London, Houston and Sterling. So that's the Lumo stuff, right? And it says network rails position is that nine theoretical paths in each direction remain throughout the dates basically when the lumo service isn't running and that these now act as fire break paths. Network rail has provided clear evidence that the fire brake paths are frequently used. So you know the principle of using fire brakes as is common sense and it's quite rational and then the kudigraph if you like in the letter they say they they list out all their decisions and they say we do not agree with network rail 10:01 support for the additional right from Manchester Pig to Houston the 7:00 right this service occupies one of the paths identified as by network rail as critical for managing performance on the west coast mainline south fast lines we only granted uh the ability for Avanti to run this 7:00 because at that time the Lumo service wasn't running but during the December 25 timetable of course it will start running albeit only probably in April next year but this is the best bit. It is also worth noting that an ECS movement empty coaching stop movement can be planned and operated with greater flexibility than a booked passenger service which can assist with performance management and service recovery during disruption. I mean, I was looking at that exact paragraph with the orange circle there, the highlight rang the word about an ECS can assist with I don't know. Yeah. And that's when the L this is what I don't understand. I'm really struggling with this. This is when the Lumo trains going in. So, you've got a choice between taking out 11:02 this crack express which is very popular which fulfills the um having regard to the funds and everything else and all that. You can take that one out or you could put one less open access training. Who in the right mind does does that a name that cropped up with us a few minutes ago? You know how things change over a period of time? It's boiling frog things. They change a bit, don't they? But my goodness, how the ORR has changed since the days of our mutual friend, Mr. Windsor. Can you imagine this happening with Tom? I can't. Well, I don't I think I think Tom would have applied a common sense perhaps which wasn't done here. I think there's isolical about it. Well, yes, he would and would have probably kind of gone and had probably gone and kicked the wall or something as well sometimes, but but nonetheless, you know. Yeah. Um there's an interesting point you just made there. Why did they carry on allowing um the Lumo one of the Lumo services to run this? Well, the answer to that is relative straightforward because they've got firm rights. Okay. So, the Lumo services are fixed. Their 12:03 firm illustrates a madness of the system that a crack, you know, is contingent. Oh, for goodness sake. But I wonder also Nigel whether um there was a fear in the OR around this time. So it was only in July that they told Lumo they couldn't go to Rodale and Manchester with their other open access application. They told Virgin that they couldn't have all of their open access applications and they told the Rexom and Shropshire guys that they couldn't have theirs either. Right. performance keeps mentioned and mentioned and mentioned and capacity capacity right yeah and I wonder whether I don't know this but I wonder whether in the mind somewhere was but if we aren't seem to be really really tough on the existing operator as well it will look like we're treating people differently now we don't we don't know that right because it but you're kind of left struggling around for reasons to justify this because it feels really different well I don't buy the performance issue 13:00 at all there's the m there might be marginal benefit in being able to mess around with an ECS service compared to a the passenger service, but it's marginal, right? And and I think that's what most people said. The point about the Secretary of State's funds is very relevant. And even, you know, Heidi Alexander made the point, I think, in the tweet, if you look at the OR's latest financial results for the industry, there's only West Coast of Anti-West Coast and I think Greater Anglia that are actually um delivering a premium, right? So, you know, it it does not it's just not rational to um to to cut off one of the trains that would really help continue that that sort of um that sort of approach. However you slice and dice it, that comes up, doesn't it? And you know, how many times have we talked about Heidi or reporter at the select committee or anywhere else saying that we've got to reduce the cost to the taxpayer of the railway. So, let's do that by chopping off one of the crack trains which is really popular and successful. It's it's just madness. As a wider political 14:04 point, I've never been a fan of conspiracy theories. I've never found one. But this certainly plays into I bet there were some half smiles at the DFT um among officials and ministers that if you needed a situation to show how we needed to change the current situation and get uh get back in control with um with the new organization, then this is it. And Heidi actually said it in the aftermath of this. I saw her say um quite derisively, we need one organization run the railway, not 17. Well, we've had on that theme, we've had sight of the letter that the rail minister uh Lord Hendy wrote to the chair of the O about this and I'll no doubt did it. Well, I'll just read a couple of the sentences. I mean, this is quite direct language. Um I would like to convey in the strongest terms my concern with this decision given it is manifestly not in the best interest of passengers and taxpayers. That's quite strong manifest. Um yeah, this uh Vant West Coast service is highly valued by commuters run at a 15:04 profit to the benefit of taxpayers and I would urge you to reconsider your decision. That bit's in bold. But here's the really interesting bit. More broadly, the apparent contradiction in the OR's decision-making on this issue is a clear demonstration that the current access regime is not working for passengers and taxpayers. This government's approach to addressing this is through establishing GBR as a single directing mind for the railway able to take the decisions on use of the network fairly in the public interest making the absolute best use of the limited capacity we have. Wow. I mean in a way has no bearing on this avant west coast 7:00 to London decision. But if ever you now know why they're doing what they're doing in the railways bill, there it is. Well, that's right. Just just one last point, Richard. Um Graeme Eckles made a very interesting point online that there was um you know nobody around to point out that the king was not wasn't wearing 16:00 any clothes or the king's new clothes. It is clearly stupid to have the appellent organization the or acting in a ludicrous way and bluntly the only person with any experience of all this in public saying how mad it was was you. You know you did your radio 4 thing and the TV thing and they caved that afternoon. Now I'm not giving you too much praise but I think you really helped push that over the edge. Well, yeah. Well, don't because in fairness, there were quite a lot of others. I mean, Burnham was pretty. That's why I just That's why I just said Henry Mur was pretty cross. You helped to push it over the edge in a very public way. Well, and I think that was the right thing. I have to say, you know, one thing I say about the OR, they could have dug the heels in. They could have sort of stood on a bit of Well, they could have they could have taken longer than they did. They didn't. They did it the same day. They reversed it. that I think and I said this um I think later on on on um on the BBC I said that is to their credit that they did that because it just stopped it it k it kind of ended it the discussion really but how we allowed ourselves as a as an 17:03 industry and how they allowed ourselves to get my point if you are going to pick one thing not to make a standover it was probably that train give him credit Richard yeah all right absolute last comment that's a bit like giving a man credit for leaping the window of a burning building. But um I like to be balanced. But look, the right the right decision was taken in the end. But we shouldn't have had to go through the Shira to get there now. But look at the amount of energy and effort and mental capacity and discussion that all could have been gone into making the railway better. That's a fair point, you know. So there you go. There you go. Right. Let's move on. Indeed. 17:42 Fares freeze update Okay. Humble pie. Richard, how do you fancy a slice? Is there anything is there anything you'd like to tell us, share with the nation? Would you perhaps be talking about the fairs freeze? I would. Charming. Um Okay. Well, last week we 18:00 talked about the fairs freeze and the decision not to increase regulated fairs next year. Okay. Um and I did say amongst the amongst the things we discussed, I did say this. I said if you plotted rail usage as a function of income decile so the 10% right you would find a very skewed distribution most people that use rail are in the higher income brackets doesn't mean people in lower income brackets don't use it but it is skewed very significantly to the right boom and it is fair to say that that generated quite the reaction principally I suspect because of that line most people that use rail are in the higher income brackets um and it there was some quite sort of you knowing responses to that. Yeah. Yeah. Now, you know, I think it it's a potential point of debate about how you define most uh but I do agree. I absolutely do agree that if you you know, you could infer from that that what I was saying was that people in low, excuse me, people in low income groups don't you really use rail and therefore aren't really going 19:04 to benefit from the fairs freeze. Well, clearly people in low income lower income groups and I'm not talking about the bottom. talking about, you know, below the below the median if you like. Clearly they use rail and clearly they'll benefit from the fairs freeze. Um but apologies if you were one of those who took real umbrage at that and thought I was being very insensitive as one person said uh it was not the intention. Right. That was absolutely not the intention to be fair. I think what you did was make a general point but make it sound absolute. I think that's probably exactly what happened. Yeah. So there you go. Right. So um you know sorry about that. Um, it is though worth thinking just a bit about this point about relative use. It's still very important. And I wanted to mention something called the National Travel Survey, the NTS as it's as it's wonderfully called. What is the National Travel Survey? Well, if you look on the uh government's website, it says um that uh it's a household survey designed to monitor long-term trends in personal travel and to inform the development of 20:02 policy. It is the primary source of data on personal travel patterns by residents of England within Great Britain. So it's an important thing. Okay. And it's also something we can rely on because if you look at um it it actually talks about it says our statist our statistical I can never say that word. Our statistical practice is regulated by the office for statistics regulation sets the standards of trustworthiness quality and value in the code of practice for statistics. What does that mean in English? you can rely on this having been done properly is what that basically means. So what does the NTS say uh in terms of in terms of surface rail? Okay, surface rail very important um sort of uh condition there. Well um in the current NTS 2024 they don't do it in deciles they do it in what are called quintiles. So it's the it's the lowest 20% then the next 20%. So there's five quintiles right in 100%. And if you look at 2024, the average number of trips by household income 21:02 quintile on service rail. So the average number of trips uh per person per year in the lowest quintile was 11, then 13, then 15, then 23, and then in the highest it was 41. Okay. So it it's it is the the fact on that that the highest income level group made 3.73 times the number of rail trips peranom than the lowest income group. Hence the general point is right and hence the the point about um uh relative you know relative distribution. However, the problem with like all stats is that's a very national, you know, generalization if you like um because we also know that those in the highest income quartile may travel further than the lowest. So the average, you know, the total number of miles traveled by uh household per person, sorry, per person in the highest quintile is 1149. In the lowest it's 313. That's a big difference. Why is that? Is that because they're doing more business trips? 22:04 because they're doing more leisure trips. Is it because commuting journeys are longer in some parts of the country? Interesting, isn't it? There's lots of stuff. Yeah, there is. And that doesn't, you know, what about younger people? Are they traveling more? What about that demographic and so on so forth? I think that there's quite a lot to unpack in who is traveling by rail and why. And I've got this idea that a bit like with John Worth, you know, he's our kind of European expert, we need to find a statistician who can come and talk about this because this stuff does inform policy, right? Um yes, it does. So even my, you know, 3.73 times in the highest quintile compared to the lowest quintile. It's a very general point and there's lots of detail and the detail I think is interesting. Okay, we'll come back to that. Having said all of that, Nigel, I still believe that the fair's freeze policy was not fully thought through and it will have some undesired 23:01 consequences even if it has pleased and rightly so. Okay, those who use rail to commute and wherever they live and whatever income group they're in. So, if you're person who is affected by it, you are delighted and so should you be, right? But there are some issues I think for wider policy. Yeah, absolutely. It's it is interesting. I've never really given it that much thought before, but it's maybe something we should look into in a bit more detail. Um, but what what is good, as much as it gives me and Steph pleasure to see our green signal holding you to account on something that you were quite as specific with the language that you maybe should have been, isn't it great to see how people are just absorbing the real detail of what we're doing and saying and being part of the discussion? I you know and challenging us back which is and that's right and and I love that. So so well done for giving Richard a hard time. Please keep it up. Um but let's get back down to nittygritty brass tax and all the rest of it. Richard, are we any closer to finding out how much the 24:04 fairs freeze is going to cost the taxpayer? Well, we are. Uh and in fact, the DFT have been very helpful, right? They've been very good. Say it again. The DFT have been very helpful, right? So, we asked them three questions. Um, we asked, we said this. You say the passenger savings from the recently announced fairs freeze is 600 million because that's what it said in the press release. Okay. You also say that you expect unregulated fairs to follow regulated fairs. Does this mean you've included unregulated fairs in the 600 million saving calculation? And does it mean unregulated fairs going to be frozen as well? Right. And they said this. They said um unregulated have typically followed a similar trend to regulated fairs in recent years. So we expect the majority of passengers to benefit from savings. In other words, we expect the majority of unregulated fairs effectively to stay 25:01 frozen as well. Um and they said the 600 million assumes that unregulated fairs do track regulated fairs. So the 600 million is a maximum savings figure for passengers noting that some unregulated fairs may not be frozen. So what they mean is they say I think I followed that. Well, yeah, it's a bit it's a bit tortured, isn't it? It's a bit s Humphrey. What what they're saying is in calculating the 600, we've assumed that unregulated fairs pretty much stay frozen as well because they tend to follow regulated. But it's a maximum because not all unregulated fairs will do that. And in fact, there's some evidence that some train operators are putting them up, right? So, it's a bit sneaky. They should have said 600 million is the maximum in in these conditions, but actually it won't be that much, right? But at least they were clear about that. Okay. Yep. Question two. I said the Treasury say the cost of the fairs freeze in 2026 27 is £145 million. Is this the net cost after any demand stimulus brought about 26:03 by the fairs freeze is factored in? And they said the figures set out are net figures including the impact of Barnet consequentials. Come back to that sec which take into account the passenger savings from implementing the policy offset by extra revenue that could be generated by by more people using the railway. So in other words, they've said, 'You're right. It's going to cut we that the fair's savings will put 600 million up to 600 million in people's pockets. We believe though it'll stimulate more ridership.' Okay. But even after it's done that, we'll still be 145 million in the hole, right, as the government. So that's what it's going to cost. The Baret consequential point, I suspect, is because this is a policy that affects England. Barnet kicks in and the devolved nations get a share using the Barnet formula to spend on whatever they want. So in that 145, there's money for Scotland and for Wales and Northern Ireland, I guess. Um, but that's just the Barnet formula 27:05 kicking in. It will cost the Treasury 145 million quid, right? I am glad you're around to translate Richard. all this consequentials offset. No, I know I know it is a bit it's a bit tortured that my final question was will the and this is really the key will the cost of 145 million in 26 27 be met by the treasury adding that amount to the department Ardell so the resource departmental expenditure limited limit so that your budget is protected in other words you got given a load of money in the spending review are you going to get another 145 million now to pay for this and they came back said Yes, HM Treasury will provide 145 million more budget to DFT and the devolved administration. So there you go. So it it's quite fascinating. It is going to cost money. It's going to cost 145 million to do this fairs freeze. Um even after you've taken account of the demand that's 28:00 stimulated by the fairs freeze. But the good news is the Department of Transport hasn't got to yet find yet more savings. The Treasury are going to cough up the money. He even my mind is actually penetrating the sahumphris speak here Richard to make some connections but is this not sort of like deja vu all over again if you forgive the expression. Did we not have the same discussion with TFGM um and the DFT about the recent simplification affairs in Manchester? I recall that interview with Alex way. We did. You said are you going to have to pay for this? And nope. Nope. Nope. We're not. Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. We went back to transport for Greater Manchester on that very point. They did a bit of aos hospital pass and said talk to the department. Um now the department said yeah we're we're the aim of Manchester is to be revenue neutral. Um and I said well fine but surely there's going to be a lag right instantly does it? It's not going to happen instantly. Who's paying in the short run? Uh and they actually said well actually no it's not going to be instantaneous but it will happen very quickly. And I 29:02 thought, well, that's odd because if you think about price elasticity of demand, which is you drop the price and demand goes up, right? Whether how how much it goes up really depends on whether which is what we call relatively inelastic or relatively elastic. And I I mean I'm not I haven't seen the numbers. Be absolutely clear. There's a thing called PDFH, which is the passenger demand forecasting handbook, which has all of this in. Elasticities do vary by short run and long run. They do vary by journey purpose, whether it's commuting, leisure, or whatever. They do vary by the where you are in the country. So, it's quite complicated, but I did talk to a um a couple of people who are very experienced on this kind of thing. Not Manchester specifically, but this kind of thing. And the general view is that the elasticities are such that you'd have to get to what's called minus one which is the coefficient of minus one which is what we call unitary elasticity where the reduction in price leads to an increase in demand that the two cancel 30:01 out right and no one really thinks that there's there's anything in Manchester that's minus one, right? It's going to cost some money. Um that's not necessarily a bad thing. Okay. And it could be that by having integrated ticketing, which is Andy Bernham's real thing, you know, the B card you use, you that of itself could stimulate demand, which it kind of has in London, right? Because people trust it to charge them the right fair and it's easy and simple and so on. But I still think um the reality is going to be the Manchester experiment is going to cost money and I'm still not clear over who's paying for that. But given I mean I've I've said this countless times on interviews. People talk about European fairs and say well they pay more tax so they can have cheaper fairs. Um surely that's what's happening here. Is it it's got to be valid for a government to say well we're going to have some of that and they can turn the turn the dial to make it cheaper for passengers by by charging more taxes. And nobody else can 31:01 do that can they? Nobody else can do that. No of course of course that's fair. And for the people that will benefit from it Manchester it's terrific. Right. I'm not I'm not arguing that. Yeah, I I agree and I do think this integrated ticketing thing could be a really good thing actually uh in terms of just stimulating more interest in public transport because it just becomes easier. Right. I think I think the problems just want a consistency, right? So you referred to it a little while ago. The government have been saying for like banging the drum say we've got to bring the subsidy down. We've got to bring the subsidy down. Right. Relentlessly. Um and then they say the fairs freeze will stimulate demand which it will but it will still end up costing us more subsidy. We just talked about that £145 million. Um, with Manchester, they say that it's going to be pretty much revenue neutral or that's the aim and it'll be pretty quick. I'm not sure I quite buy that, but I've got no way of arguing it really because I haven't seen the numbers. It's just that suddenly this has been the policy drive subsidy down, drive subsidy down, and then all of a sudden we're going to do something different. And I suppose it's the slight lack of consistency and then the 32:01 inability for us to get under the bonnet of the numbers really well, which I think we have with the fairs freeze, but not quite so well with Manchester, that's caused me to scratch me head a bit. But but in terms of the traveling public is terrific, and I get that. And as you said in um in in a previous um in a previous show there's the constant refrain as Peter Hendy at the transport select committee there is no more money but if you find the right trigger or it's politically the right what you want to do oh yes there is and then on the other hand you've got things like the west coast train scrapping a very profitable train or not you know you know what I'm saying with regard to 7:00 um the actions are in are in contrad iction with what she's constantly saying about less subsidy. Not that we're being critical about low affairs or anything else, but it's it's that consistency, isn't it? No. And in fairness, the the OR took the decision over the summer. Um but but yeah, generally you're you're right. It just sometimes feels a bit inconsistent, but there you go. But um thank you for all that, Richard. I'm sure there's lots of people out 33:04 there like me. Grateful for your translation of all that sir Humphrey speak. We are now calling at a short ad break. Do not elite here. It's that time of the year when we're all wondering about what Christmas presents to buy. Well, if you've got children or grandchildren and they love railways and railway stories, these could be the perfect gift. This is Great Western Glory, one of a series of four books written by Simon AC Martin and beautifully illustrated by Dean Foster. Simon works for Network Rail as a signaling engineer. But in his spare time, as well as being a prolific author, he's the treasure of the Merchant Navy Locomotive Preservation Society. Because of Simon's deep railway knowledge, these books are extremely authentic. They're based on real locations, real engines, and real history. Each book is beautifully printed, and as well as the stories themselves, there are detailed notes on each class of engine that makes an 34:01 appearance, as well as locations used and a glossery of terms. For children, this is educational as well as entertaining. There is humor of plenty as well. I confess I laughed out loud when in one of the books, Nigel, the V3 tank engine, groaned. He was trying to sleep. It had been a tough day for him. Strath would have a special offer for Christmas. You can save almost 70% on the recommended retail price for a bargain price of just £14.95 for a full set of all four hardback books in the series. So, check out the description for a link to Strathwood and how to buy the perfect Christmas gift for your children or grandchildren. 34:46 Alex Hynes is appointed to DFTO And on to news of a major appointment in the rail sector. After months of speculation, bit like the budget, although more like wrangling, and we'll come back to that in a minute, it has been announced that Alex Hines is to succeed Robin Gizby as CEO of DFTTO, the 35:05 department's operations unit, the overarching entity that runs the train companies that are being brought back into public and ownership. Announcing the appointment, Secretary of State Heidi Alexander said, 'Alex Hines's appointment will build on the achievement so far of smoothly bringing operators into public ownership, and I'm confident that will continue going forward. I'd like to thank Robin Gizby for his work in effectively leading DFTO through challenging periods all the way from the pandemic to the beginning of the transition to Great British Railways. Robin had a major impact on the rail industry and he leaves an enduring legacy recognized by colleagues and passengers. That's a good appointment, isn't it, Richard? Oh, definitely. Definitely. And you know, some nice words for Robin there. For Robin who's been very low profile, we haven't seen much of him in public really for a long time. Yeah, but I'm told, you know, be you know, he's carried on like working just 36:04 as hard up to the end of that. So, so you know, fair fair play and and it was good that the Secretary of State um acknowledged that. Yeah. Acknowledged that. I mean, the risk um once Robin left was we were going to get more of a a bureaucrat or, you know, than an operator. And with Alex Hines, we've absolutely got an operator. You know, he's got genuine experience of that running. Hoay for that. to totally agree. Um, obviously Northern Scot Rail, he, in the words of Graeme Eckles, um, you know, he knows which end to put the flipping engine on. I mean, obviously, uh, Graeme doesn't say it quite like that, but you know what I mean. So, he didn't say flip in, did he? No. So, no, but he, um, you know, he's an experienced operator. I think that's a good thing, though. We referred to the months of speculation. There's um quite a bit of wrangling though before the uh before it was um it was it was appointed. He was appointed, wasn't he? But I can guess what it's about. money. I I believe it's just been a a real, you know, the 37:01 Treasury needing convincing that that talent needs to be, you know, properly compensated. I mean, it's a bit weird because if you if you remember the James Stewart review into the um into HS2, one of the things that James made the point was you've got to pay the market rate for for excellent talent. And you know, the Secretary of State for Transport accepted all of James's recommendations. So, a bit of a nuisance that this has taken as long as it has, but it is now sorted, which is great. So, I wonder what's going to be different at DFTO. We'll have to get used to that acronym, won't it? With Alex in charge compared with Robin, we shall um That's going to be interesting, isn't it? It it will. I mean, I suspect Alex will be quite hands-on because if he's got that operational experience, his challenge will be not being so hands-on that he sort of m tries to micromanage. I I don't think he will. Look, he's an experienced, you know, he's an experienced guy and he's going to have his um hands full setting up the organization, which of course is getting bigger all the time as they're bringing more train operators back into 38:05 public ownership. I don't know if you saw the the press release she quoted the um secretary of state's uh what she said about um the appointment and Robin also said this to ensure DFTTO has the necessary resources as it takes on more services over 200 civil servants from DFT rail teams will transfer into DFTO by 1st of April 2026. Uh the decision signals a commitment from government to prioritize the smooth functioning of operators in public ownership. I mean, it was the 200 that sort of slightly raised my eyebrow. Some of those will be contract managers and I just don't see a role for that. Um, you know, post once they come into DFTO, but we'll we'll wait and see. It's going to be I think Alex is going to have to navigate through that quite care. And therein lies Alex's challenge, doesn't he? But just picking up your point before we kind of move on is that um if we're going to have anybody um let's not say micromanaging, let's say being more closely involved in the running of the railway, I would soon be 39:04 somebody like Alex than a than than an an official and a bureaucrat because at least he knows the implications and the the the stuff of what he's going to be deciding about. However, let us in even though we don't like speculating, let us speculate. Um, is Alex on a path to becoming chief exec of GBR in due course? Uh, could could well be and you know there's plenty that would say you know good result really. I think he's now you know he's been slightly uh not not insulated but he's been within the department for transport. He's reported to the permanent secretary so he's had quite a bit of air cover in one sense. Um I think it's going to be different at DFTO. it's going to be a more exposed roles certainly as that gets bigger and more complex and wieldy. So, he'll have to sort of demonstrate he can do that. I mean, I don't think there's any doubt. No. But, um, nonetheless, yeah, I mean, why why not really and and and actually goes 40:02 back to what you just said. If at the end of the day, we have somebody who really understands how things work, that's crucial. What's going to be important for GBR people is that they're able to manage down into the industry, but they're able to manage up into, you know, the political world. And one of the great things about Alex is particularly in his Scott Rail experience, he knows exactly how to do that. So, yeah. So, the politics of this will be very significant um forever really and and that's what we need. So, maybe Yeah, maybe. It's good speculation that I like that. But from both sides of that interface, from above it and below it, everybody involved needs to know that the voice of the government dealing with GBR is is a railway mind and understands what the issues are so the best decisions are taken and and and that's going to be good with Alex. So congratulations, Alex. We uh we look forward to um observing and working with you on that one. And who knows, hopefully you'll be back on Green 41:00 Signals soon, Richard. What do you reckon? That would be great. There you go, Alex. Hint. And now it's 41:07 Thanks to Supporters time to thank everyone who supports us. First of all, our usual thanks to RIA, the Railway Industry Association as our program supporter and to Rail Business Daily as our media supporter. And a big thank you of course to everyone who supports us by giving super thanks on YouTube this week. Andrew Sedan, Chris Exley, John Kirkman, Caroline Cleavely, Alan Kirkman, Nigel Mapston, Alistister Rutage, Bob Walsh, Graeme Pierce, and the independent Brigline Rail Group. So, thank you to everyone who's done that. The support is genuinely humbling and all three of us are really grateful for contributing to make a help help us achieve what we all want us to achieve here. Absolutely. And thanks also to our uh members. We've got new silver member Chris Lambert Shields and also to Thomas Haywood who upgraded to gold. Thank you both. Um we publish a list of all our 42:04 amazing uh members in the end credits. We've just published a new membersonly video actually which uh included a lot of drone footage from Thomas Haywood who is a professional uh drone pilot. Absolutely superb. If you're a member and you've not watched that yet, do do watch that. It's abs. Everybody's watched it has just raved about it. Um, and if you're not um a member, we are still running our Green Friday discount off your first month membership until Friday, December the 5th. You have to head to Patreon to do that, but there's a link in the description. Use the code green Friday at the checkout to take advantage. And on my frequent point about community, isn't it great that we've got a top quality members video by a member? Absolutely superb. Yeah. So, thanks, Thomas. And we're looking forward looking forward to volume two, dare I say it. Um, and now it's time for this week's railway news roundup. The 42:59 GBRf Class 99s arrive second pair of GBRS class 99s have arrived in the UK. 993 and 994 43:07 arrived by ship at the Bristol Company's Royal Portsbury dock on Thursday, November the 27th. Both will undergo testing in the coming weeks and will join 99001 and two which are nearing readiness for entry into service early next year. How exciting is that? And mighty fine looking machines they are as well. Looks like a superbly executed project. Can't wait to see them in service. And I have to pause again, Richard, to urge people to have a look at your class 99 video, which when I looked yesterday, had passed 261,000 views on YouTube, over a quarter a million views. There you go. So, well done on a great video. And if you haven't seen it, please do take a look at it. Another very bit of good news, uh, here Nigel, Southwestern Railway have announced, uh, that they had restored 43:56 West of England service restored the full West of England service between Waterloo X and Exit. Actually, also on the 27th of November, according to uh 44:04 Southwestern Railway, they said the driest spring and hottest summer ever recorded in the UK had dried out clay embankments between Salsbury and Exit and disturbed track levels, a condition known as soil moisture deficit. As the ground below the tracks continued to move, engineers could not complete repairs and speed restrictions were introduced for the safety of passenger trains. However, cooler temperatures and autumn rain have since rehydrated and stabilized the embankments, and engineers have now completed extensive tamping work to restore track levels. With track levels back to normal, the speed restrictions have been removed and the normal timetable, which causes an hourly timetable, has been restored. Terrific news. Really good. Absolutely good news. And speaking personally, Richard, we only have to see the canals full again, and I'll be a bit happier. Indeed. Thanks to Norman Doors and David 44:53 Dean Forest Railway RAIB report Reedwell who spotted this one, the rail accident investigation branch has found that a 19th century foot bridge carrying 45:01 a public footpath in Gstersha collapsed after being struck by an incorrectly loaded excavator on the back of a train. The incident occurred at around 10:55 a.m. on August 14th on the Dean Forest Railway when a 360 degree 8ton ton excavator being moved from Ldney Junction to Whitefra struck the bridge. Fortunately, no one was injured during the incident, but REI has outlined how a number of inadequate safety measures led to the accident. It stated, 'This accident demonstrates the importance of Heritage Railway staff and volunteers only undertaking safety critical tasks for which they have been trained and assessed as competent.' Key second bit there. Being aware of any loading gauge restrictions when transporting large or unusual road loads by train. And this accident also underlines the importance of heritage railways undertaking appropriate risk assessments for their activities and 46:05 implementing effective controls. We always report when lorries at bridges we have to do the same, don't we? Absolutely right. Um thanks to uh a number of members uh for spotting this 46:16 TfGM plans for Denton one. Alistister Rutlidge, Steve Moroft, John Kirkman amongst others. There are plans to use the underused rail line through Denton. You know the uh the Staley Bridge to uh guide bridge, isn't it? Isn't that the one? Isn't that Don Stley Bridge to Stockport? Sorry. So, isn't Denton the one train a week that calls in there just so they don't have to go through the closure? It's a it's a parliamentary train. Yeah, exactly. Right. Um uh anyway, the plan is to potentially uh connect um the Metroink network uh through using it using that line. idea. Um, it's been considered by Transport for Greater Manchester in a move that they say could transform connectivity for thousands of residents and businesses. Now, they're already working with Stockport Council to develop a business case for bringing trams to Stockport. Um, the strategic outline 47:02 business case, the first step in the process is exploring currently exploring a core extension from the existing uh stop at Eastbury to Stockport Town Center. But now TFGM is also considering how this this could unlock future extensions including the use of tram train technology where services can run obviously on both tram and train tracks to run beyond Stockport town center along the Denton rail line connecting the area firmly into the wider Metroink network. Sounds good. I mean in a way I suppose the original model for Metroink was a bit like that wasn't it really was taking the old area and altering lines and then building the bit in the middle but this is kind of the next level. I I think you know Metroink's been such a great success. Hopefully this will will see the lighter day. And isn't it interesting that that would be our would it be our third tram train? We got Sunderland out there. We've got um Sheffield. Oh Sheffield and completely unknown not too long ago and now seems to be spreading more. It's that's great. More power to their elbow. Let's see more of 48:04 especially when there's a piece of infrastructure, a railway that's not being used and could be wonderful. Let's see that. Steven Trotter brought our attention to this one. The International Transport Consultancy, ACOM, have been 48:18 AECOM appointed to take forward Leamside Line plans appointed to take forward plans to reopen the lameside line. Interesting in your view, Richard. The northeast mayor Kim McInness has made this a big priority of her term and so this is an important next step. ACOM's task is, we are told, to complete a new assessment that will look at the feasibility and benefits of reopening the line. Um, as well as detailed technical work on a new investment corridor which will identify growth opportunities for jobs and housing along a reopened line. I suppose we don't say reactivated really because I don't think it ever closed, did it? Tobin Hughes, director of transport at the Northeast Combined Authority, said reopening the Lemidel line is essential not just just for the Northeast, but the whole country. It will transform transport connections for many local 49:03 communities as well as hugely expanding rail capacity and adjacent on the adjacent and congested East Coast main line. And a rather dramatic note, that's the news roundup for this week. Um, what got to ask you, Richard, what do you think of the lean side thing? cuz it hasn't I don't think it's ever really closed. In fact, the color lights on a derelict railway still work, I think. Is that right? Uh well, fun fact, um in Virgin's n 1999 bid for the East Coast franchise, so the first one for the East Coast franchise, which I was involved with, we knew we had congestion issues north of um you know, on the section to Newcastle on the East Coast mainline. So, we actually included reopening the Lean Side line and opening a new Yeah. and opening a station at Washington and bringing some East Coast services uh that way into Newcastle rather than on the existing main line which would have actually um helped quite significantly. So there you go. What goes around comes 50:00 around. It's been very heavily plundered and bits thieved hasn't it? But I think at the junction at the south end you can see a color light and I do recall going past some indeterminate period ago and seeing it lit you know but Washington's a big place. So let's see what they do. That' be good. Okay. So, if you'd like to send us any snippets of news, you can drop us an email at news@greens signals.org. Can't promise to read them all out, but if we read yours, we'll give you a name check, which means it's time to do the quiz. 50:26 The Quiz Um, now last week's question was was this. It was, 'What do crew Doncaster and Harriut have in common?' Uh, some quite interesting answers to this really, but the correct answer was that they all have football teams that were founded thanks to a connection with the railway. So, Crew Alexandria Football Club, that was an offshoot of Crew Alexandria Cricket Club, which was established in 1866 by uh workers at Crew Locomotive Works, Doncaster Rovers, was established by workers of the then Great Northern Railway Works in 1879. 51:00 Haragut Railway Athletic FC, which still goes to this day, um a bit later, it was established by workers from the L&R depot there in 1935. So, they're all connected with um football clubs and the winner randomly chosen from the correct answers we had was Omar Gala. So, well done, Omar. If you send us an email uh to quiz greens.org with your address, we'll get your mug out to you. Um I thought I'd go for a really easy one this week because that football one was a little harder. Um not not as many people got it right. Um so, it's a nice easy one. What do H Highman, Ed Walton, and Monk Breton all have in common? Hi, Manum, Ed Walton, and Monk Breton. Um, they're all railway locations, but what they got in common? If you think you know, answers, please, to quiz green signals.org by midday on Saturday, 6th December, uh, we'll put all the correct answers in a hat. Expecting quite a lot for this one, and we'll select a winner a winner at random to get one of our quiz uh, Green Cvils quiz winners mugs. 52:01 Indeed. And I know you're always impressed by the depth of my football knowledge, Richard. Yes. Um, you could have added, of course, Newton Heath 1878. Laner and Yorkshire Railway MPD football team, which became Manchester United in 1902 after local businessmen took it over. It was nearly bankrupt and renamed it and introduced red and white from green and gold, I think. Aren't you impressed? I am very impressed. The reason why I didn't include it because I'd have just had to say Manchester and Manchester could have been any one of a number of teams, but your your knowledge is absolutely correct. I am impressed. I only knew it vaguely. I did look it up, but it's I didn't I didn't realize that they'd nearly gone bankrupt and that's when they changed to red and white, but in it great that an engine shed came up with the one of the world's best known football teams. Even I'm impressed. Even I'm impressed. Let's finish as usual with an uplifting story. Richard Phil Armstrong and Jez Mccleas, both Elanar Station customer 53:01 service assistants, have built a unique planter in the shape of an Isuma to display at Grandanthm Station. The pair used up pallets taken from deliveries to the station. Very Blue Peter. Brilliant. And leftover wood from renovation work to make the shell and base of the planter. The mini livery was specially produced free of charge and donated by Steuart Signs, which LNR has worked on with full-size train wraps. Thanks to generosity like this and the use of recycle materials, the creative project cost just 150 quid. And the planter full of lovely greenery is now on display in Pride Place on platform one at Grandanthm. I don't know. Platform one, is that the main up platform? You're the east coast man. I have to say if you don't know there's no way I'm going to challenge you. The reason I asked was the north end of the up platform. It was only very simple bit. It used to have a beautifully manicured hedge. Right. Um and it was and then for some reason 54:05 they tore it down and put up a fence so you could see all these porter cabins and it looked really and I'm hoping it's kind of gone there but wherever it's gone I have to go and have a look. Well done to well done to those guys. And sadly, that is all we've got time for this week. Thanks so much as usual for watching and listening. A rather lively agenda this week. Um, don't forget to give us a thumbs up, leave a comment, and if you haven't already, please subscribe to the YouTube Green Signals channel. Doesn't cost you anything and it helps us a lot. And if you really want to support us, find out about membership on YouTube or Patreon. But most importantly, join Richard and me next week for this show, which will always be completely free. And we hope to see you then. Until then, is goodbye from me. And it's goodbye from me. Have yourselves a great, albeit chilly week. Heat. Heat. Jack try check. Heat. Heat. sadly, that is all we've got time for this week. Thanks so much as usual for watching and listening. A rather lively agenda this week. Um, don't forget to give us a thumbs up, leave a comment, and if you haven't already, please subscribe to the YouTube Green Signals channel. Doesn't cost you anything and it helps us a lot. And if you really want to support us, find out about membership on YouTube or Patreon. But most importantly, join Richard and me next week for this show, which will always be completely free. And we hope to see you then. Until then, is goodbye from me. And it's goodbye from me. Have yourselves a great, albeit chilly week. Heat. Heat. Jack try check. Heat. Heat.

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