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POLITICS GOVERNOR JOSH SHAPIRO OF PENNSYLVANIA The Bulwark: Pennsylvania Is Turning Away from MAGA PLAY YOUTUBE VIDEO Original article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsZYjPIrI0g
Josh Shapiro: Pennsylvania Is Turning Away from MAGA The Bulwark Nov 5, 2025 1.53M subscribers ... 234,740 views ... 10K likes Bulwark Takes Sarah Longwell talks with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro about what Democrats’ big election wins really mean, how Trump’s tariffs and shutdowns hurt his own voters, why voters are rejecting chaos, and how Democrats can win by simply making people’s lives better. They also discuss the divide over Israel and Gaza, the future of the party, and what moral clarity looks like in politics today. Become a Bulwark Youtube Plus Member here - / @bulwarkmedia How this was made Auto-dubbed Audio tracks for some languages were automatically generated Peter Burgess COMMENTARY Peter Burgess Transcript 0:00 Oh my gosh, everybody. I am so excited. 0:02 Obviously, I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher 0:04 of The Bull Work, but I'm here with 0:05 Governor Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania, 0:08 my home state. Josh Shapiro, how are you, man? Sarah, I'm doing awesome. I'm so happy to be on with you. We got to talk Pennsylvania. Where are you from in Pennsylvania? Uh, Montgomery County, just outside Philly and now I'm I live there in Harrisburg. So, how about you? Harrisburg. Okay. Well, so I grew up outside of Harrisburg, but I grew up in Perry County uh in Millerstown. Yeah. in a in a hamlet of 700 people. Yeah. Not many people there and no traffic lights. No. Do you know? So, this is one of my favorite stories. When people ask me where I'm from, I say one time they had to fix a bridge. So, they had to put up a stoplight and when the stoplight came down, the whole town threw an ice cream party. Yeah. Yeah. That's where I'm from. Not Not a lot of that kind of infrastructure in Perry County. Some beautiful covered bridges though. Very very pretty. It's a lovely place. Uh, Pennsylvania. You know, people, the turnpike gets a bad rap, but it's beautiful going up and down the turnpike, the trees, the 1:00 mountains. Listen, I'm happy to do this interview, but the next one, you better come back to Pennsylvania. We'll do it in Perry County. How about that? I would love to. I've been meaning to go back. Um, cuz, you know, I get notes from people now who say like, 'Oh, uh, somebody came to a show recently. It was great. I love everybody down there in Perry County.' But here's my first question for you. Are we so back? Are we back? Look, I think we're back. And I think what's clear is that voters kind of sent a similar two-part message in a whole bunch of states, including mine yesterday. Number one, we are rejecting the chaos and extremism of Donald Trump. And number two, we're voting for candidates that are actually going to make our lives better, right? Who are actually going to deal with the issues in our communities and our commonwealth and and and across the country. And I think you saw that across the board. And uh I I like how you kind of said that that we're back thing because I I don't know about you, I've been getting a little sick and tired of how many people kept looking backwards. How many people kept wanting to talk about what happened yesterday? I don't want to think about 2:00 the past. I want to think about the 2:02 future. And I think yesterday helped 2:04 propel us forward and puts us in a 2:05 really strong position for the midterms. 2:07 not not just to win a bunch of races or 2:10 maybe even reelect a governor of 2:12 Pennsylvania, but what it really really 2:14 says is we've got a path forward that is 2:17 about rejecting chaos, being pro- 2:19 freedom, and pro problemolving. And 2:22 that's what I think these candidates 2:23 showed yesterday all across the country. 2:26 Were you surprised by the margins with 2:28 which Mikey Shir and Abigail Spanberger 2:31 won? I mean, I bet my team, so I told my 2:34 team if Spanburgger was plus 13 and Chir 2:37 was plus seven, if they beat those 2:39 margins, I'd take them to Vegas thinking 2:41 that Chir wasn't going to get to that 2:43 7%. And now I got to take them. I got to 2:46 take them. It's a real hardship for me 2:48 actually. I'm really sad about it. But 2:50 were you surprised by those margins? 2:52 I mean, look, I was on the ground with 2:54 both of them, campaigning with them 2:55 really, I guess, just in the last week 2:57 or 10 days or so, and I saw a lot of 3:00 enthusiasm for them. Uh, I saw a a lot 3:02 of folks showing up to hear about how 3:04 they were going to make their lives 3:06 better and and also showing up to send a 3:08 message to Donald Trump. So, look, do 3:10 did I know exactly what the margins 3:12 would be? No. But I I felt good about 3:14 both those races. And while those two 3:16 races obviously capture a lot of 3:18 attention, you know, two big governor's 3:19 races, um probably less interesting to 3:22 your national audience, but something I 3:24 I do want to mention in Pennsylvania, we 3:27 not only held our Supreme Court, but in 3:30 the three bellweather counties that 3:32 Donald Trump won in the swingiest state 3:34 in the country last year, um we won 3:38 every race on the ballot there. We're 3:39 talking DA, sheriff, county council, 3:42 county executive, mayor's races in those 3:45 bellweather counties. That's a big, big 3:48 deal. And it's an example of not only 3:50 elevating really good candidates, but 3:52 sending a message to Trump that we're 3:54 against your chaos. We're against your 3:55 freedom and we are against you taking 3:57 away our freedoms. 3:58 You know, I promise I was going to ask 4:00 about the Pennsylvania Supreme Court 4:02 race. Uh, that was I was I was I I care 4:04 about what's happening there in 4:05 Pennsylvania. I know there was a bunch 4:06 of races there and I guess um you just 4:09 ran us through, you know, what happened 4:11 and that's great, but like what does it 4:13 feel like on the ground in Pennsylvania 4:15 right now? You know, you say, okay, 4:17 they're rejecting chaos, but 4:18 Pennsylvania, uh, you know, it's a 4:20 swingy state. Um, and it's always loved. 4:23 I something I I always say about 4:24 Pennsylvania is it it was actually 4:26 somebody who liked its sort of 4:27 contradictory politicians when I was 4:29 growing up. you know, they love to have 4:30 their pro-life Democrats um or like they 4:33 sort of did always like their their 4:35 moderates a little bit, but it went for 4:36 Trump twice uh and then one time not. 4:40 And so what is it? But are people do you 4:42 get the sense that people did it because 4:45 of affordability and you know, okay, Joe 4:48 Biden was old and now they're like, why 4:50 did I do that or or do you and and 4:53 they're ready to move on to something 4:54 else? Like what's your sense of people? 4:56 Let me let me give you two examples that 4:57 I think kind of sum it up. 4:59 Yesterday when I was going to um a 5:01 polling place in Philadelphia in one of 5:04 the neighborhoods of Philly, on my way 5:07 there, I saw this long line of people 5:10 probably, I don't know, two almost three 5:12 blocks long and then it turned the 5:14 corner and it kept going as far as I 5:16 could see. Some people had the, you 5:18 know, the I voted stickers on and and 5:21 some people didn't have them yet. 5:23 And when I looked, I realized they were 5:25 lined up at a popup food bank. These are 5:28 people who presumably lost their SNAP 5:31 benefits because Donald Trump and the 5:32 Republicans who control Congress shut 5:35 down the federal government. I mean, 5:36 this is serious stuff. People who can't 5:38 eat because Donald Trump's policies in 5:41 DC have taken away the money that they 5:44 need to be able to go buy groceries. 5:46 than in a rural community. I was with a 5:48 farmer the other day who voted for 5:50 Donald Trump, voted for me as well who 5:52 was complaining about the fact that 5:54 these tariffs have both shut down 5:57 markets for them and also caused um 6:00 their operation cost to to go up. The 6:02 the feed, the soybean feed that they 6:05 purchase for their farm cost more now 6:08 because of Donald Trump's tariffs. And 6:10 because of Donald Trump's tariffs, the 6:12 markets that these Pennsylvania farmers 6:14 rely on in Mexico, uh, in Canada are 6:17 being shut off. So whether you've got 6:19 this farmer that voted for Donald Trump 6:21 or these folks in in Philly, um, who are 6:25 hungry because of Donald Trump, what 6:27 you're seeing is Trump is doing things 6:29 that are directly hurting people in my 6:32 state. And that's before the health care 6:34 premiums double. And that's before the 6:37 rural hospitals close because of the 6:39 Medicaid cuts. I think what what's clear 6:42 is that people are feeling like, wait a 6:43 minute, I mean, and and by the way, 50% 6:46 of the people who are going to see their 6:47 health care costs go up are in counties 6:49 that voted for Donald Trump. I think a 6:51 lot of these people are like, wait a 6:52 minute, this guy I voted for screwing me 6:55 over. He's like making my life harder. 6:57 And our job as executives in government 7:00 is to chip away and make your life a 7:02 little bit better, right? Make your 7:03 healthcare a little bit more affordable. 7:04 make your housing a little bit more 7:06 accessible, make your government just 7:07 work more efficiently. These are things 7:09 I take pride in in doing as as a 7:12 governor. President should be doing the 7:13 same. And I think folks are seeing that 7:15 actually he's making their lives worse. 7:17 And they sent a message yesterday in in 7:19 many states, including mine. 7:21 I'm obsessed with the Trump Shapiro 7:23 voters, of which there are a lot. Um 7:26 there's a lot of overlap there. And uh 7:29 you know, I guess ju because I just want 7:31 to actually get into something you were 7:32 just saying, but ask it a slightly 7:33 different way. Do you think yesterday 7:34 was a referendum on Trump or do you 7:37 think it has something to do with the 7:38 makeup of off-year voters? Uh, or is it 7:41 both? 7:41 Look, there's no perfect answer and I'm 7:43 not a pundit. I'll just kind of tell you 7:45 what what my vibe check is on the 7:47 ground. I think it's 7:48 right. 7:48 It's an annoying pundit question. I'm 7:50 sorry. 7:50 Yeah, a little bit. Look, you're going 7:51 to give the answer and you're far better 7:53 at this than I am. I just think it was 7:55 both a rejection of Trump, but I I don't 7:57 think you should sleep on the fact that 7:59 there were really good candidates 8:00 running who wanted to make people's 8:02 lives better. really good counties 8:04 running for sheriff or DA or county 8:06 executive. And these are people who were 8:08 talking about substantive changes that 8:10 they could make in people's lives. I saw 8:12 that with Mikey. I saw that with 8:14 Abigail. Uh I should say governors elect 8:16 Cheryl and Governor Elect Spamber. But 8:19 what we're seeing is really, you know, 8:21 good candidates running at a time where 8:22 folks are also making clear that they 8:25 don't like what Donald Trump is doing to 8:27 them every day. I 8:28 I Yeah, I think it's a little bit of 8:29 both. Okay. So, are we going to win 8:33 all four of the swing seats in 8:35 Pennsylvania? Cuz you do have these, you 8:37 know, uh, Ryan McKenzie seats. That's a 8:39 Trump plus three, Shapiro plus 12. Um, 8:42 you have a a Harris plus one in Brian 8:44 Fitzpatrick's district, and that's a 8:46 Shapiro plus 20. Crushing there. Um, I I 8:50 do you think those are going to be 8:51 pickups in the midterms? You brought 8:52 that up at the top. I I do and I'm I'm 8:54 working really hard with um Leader Jeff 8:57 and and others to make sure we have all 9:00 the resources we need and the best 9:01 candidates to be able to compete and win 9:04 in those districts. I mean, I I will 9:07 tell you that if you look at what Texas 9:09 is doing on the redistricting side, 9:10 right, they think they're going to pick 9:12 up three, four, five Republican seats 9:14 and then of course what Gavin was 9:16 successful at doing last night in 9:18 California would probably pick up four 9:19 or five Democratic seats. you you know 9:21 the math a little bit better than I do. 9:22 But assuming that kind of cancels each 9:26 other out, doesn't give Trump the 9:27 advantage he wanted by rigging Texas, um 9:31 then I think the ball game is going to 9:32 be here in Pennsylvania where we're 9:33 going to have more competitive seats in 9:36 our Commonwealth than any other state in 9:38 the country. with a razor thin majority 9:41 for the Republicans in Congress right 9:43 now. This is going to be the state where 9:45 folks are going to have to focus to win 9:47 these races so you can stop Donald 9:50 Trump's dangerous legislative agenda and 9:53 instead begin to have Congress do what 9:55 they're supposed to do, which is to be a 9:57 check on the executive branch, to be 9:59 able to control the purse of the United 10:01 States, and to be able to have some some 10:03 more sanity in our process in DC. 10:06 Hey, what do you make of Trump trying to 10:07 get rid of the filibuster? Yeah, because 10:08 it's convenient for him now. And I I 10:10 think there's a through line in 10:11 everything Trump does. He tries to rig 10:13 the rules to suit his immediate needs. I 10:16 think you're seeing that in so many 10:18 different ways and the filibuster is 10:19 just kind of the next thing. 10:20 All right. So, I do have to ask you this 10:23 question and actually I'm pretty 10:24 interested in your answer. Uh but I feel 10:26 a little bad asking it because this is 10:28 what everybody wants. 10:29 Actually pretty interested. Not 10:31 well. 10:32 I'm super interested. 10:33 Well, n when you hear the question 10:34 basically, what's your take on Zoron? I 10:36 mean, look, I I think he was the unique figure for that state, just like Abigail was and and Mikey was, and I I think what is kind of an interesting throughine between all of them, is that they focus their campaigns on making your life better, right? Um, I'm not the expert on the issues in New York City, but he spoke over and over and over again about the affordability of 11:01 housing, the affordability of healthcare and childare and everyday services, access to busing and infrastructure and mass transit. These are all like everyday issues that matter to people. Go to New Jersey. Mikey was talking about utility costs and driving down those costs. Abigail was talking about increasing energy production in order to reduce costs there. So in many wise ways these are really different candidates obviously but a similar through line throughout and they fit their district. They fit their you know their communities. Yeah. I mean how and do you feel open to this? I guess I I've been I've been trying to balance the fact that you know I was a Republican like 20 minutes ago and now I'm in what I would call the big broad pro-democracy coalition. I am much more drawn and people who watch this show know this. I am somebody who talks about you quite a bit. you are kind of my type of bullwork candidate. Part partly because you're from Pennsylvania, partly because you win in the largest swing state in the country, which I think is really important. Um, and Zoron, not my cup of tea. Um, and some 12:02 of his old stuff, some of the river to the sea stuff, not a huge fan of it. That being said, I if I have one thing that drives me every day, it is how do we bring the country back from the brink where Donald Trump has taken it and just the toxic forces he's unleashed uh on our country. And so that requires building a big tent, a really big tent. And so do you feel good? I felt like last night was kind of interesting because it felt like it represented the big paniply of things that Democrats have to offer. Um, and do you feel like that's a good thing or do you think that there's ways in which the party would thrive because there's this ongoing debate? Should it be more moderate like in a Joshua Andy Basher kind of way? Should it go more DSA Zoron or is it just everything for everybody? What do you think? I totally reject the premise that we have to make a choice. But let let's take individuals out of this, right? Just the the broader theme. I reject the choice that we've got to choose to be progressive or moderate. I I think what instead we need to do is elevate great candidates who are going to make 13:00 people's lives better. And look, I'm I think in many ways you saw yesterday kind of local issues coming to the top whether in the governor's races, mayor's races, county executive race in in Erie, but you also saw a through line of a rejection of Donald Trump. I I think for us, we need a party that is broad, a party that compete everywhere, but we also need a party that isn't simply defined by a rejection of Donald Trump. We need to be a party that's for something. And I think you saw in a whole bunch of candidates yesterday than being for something. And I think maybe another throughine throughout is all those candidates who ran one, they're for freedom and they're for democracy. Whether I agree with every point they're making or I agree with, you know, individual things um that that were said, I think those are fair through lines that you can see in the victories the Democrats had. And if we're going to build a successful party going forward, we have to have a party um that is big, that finds ways to be united and that makes people's lives better, that we 14:02 don't define ourselves just simply around being anti-Trump, but instead around pro- you around pro the people that we're trying to serve. Yeah. Uh, I'm 100% on board with that. But what do you make of the Jay Jones thing? Like that's that's obviously for for in my feed of sort of anti- anti-Trumpers. The the big focus is on how could Democrats elect this guy. And sort of as a credential matter, I think if I was Abigail Spanberger, I would ask that guy to maybe take leave. Um, however, he did just win. Um, and so the voters have spoken. Uh, but is it do you find do you feel like Democrats are saying, you know what, because I do hear this a lot in focus groups. I'm in a lot of focus groups with voters and there's a real rejection of the when they go low, we go high mentality now. Like I hear from a lot of Democrats that are like, 'No, they're so low and I'm not I'm not accommodating that anymore.' Do you feel that or or how do you think Democrats should approach things like this? I I mean, look, the the moment I learned about uh Jones's uh you know, text 15:02 messages and all, I immediately condemned it. I mean I I think there is no place in in our politics and our society for that type of violent rhetoric. I mean my family and I are have have witnessed it directly that you know this kind of violent dangerous rhetoric can lead to dangerous attacks and and violence in in you know our communities or in our case at the governor's residence in in Harrisburg while we were asleep. That is not okay. And yes, the voters chose him and I think now he has the burden of responsibility um to speak directly to all Virginiaians and let them know um why he did what he did, what he learned from it um and how he's going to be a better person going forward. Uh but what he did was not okay and I think he needs to, you know, offer an accounting for that. Yeah. Um okay. So, when you are a top tier candidate in 2028, uh, and everyone's looking at you and thinking, okay, uh, do we like this guy? You're in a Democratic primary, all hypothetical, 16:01 of course. Um, do you feel like there is a way to heal the divide in the party around sort of Palestine, Israel, um, and and the way that Democrats feel? I I I it's the sort of the number one thing I hear in focus groups where people feel like the party is in tension. Do you feel like you have a specific positive role you could play in healing that divide? Look, forget the the sort of forecasting of what politics looks like in 2028. Let me just tell you what I do now. I mean, I I spend a considerable amount of time um in our Muslim communities and our Arab communities, our Palestinian Christian communities listening to people um understanding the pain that they feel when they see what happened in Gaza. I also listen to American Jews in Pennsylvania who uh obviously express the pain they feel, the pain I feel on what happened on October 7th and and and thereafter. And I think when you actually listen to people and you figure 17:01 out ways to bring them together as I've tried to do as governor, you can do some of that important healing work that has to happen here. And you can do that important work of building what I try and build a commonwealth in William Penn's vision, which was going to be a place for all people of all different walks of life, of all faiths. I'm not sure Penn ever imagined there'd be a Jewish governor in the land that he created, but he'd probably be pretty proud. probably be damn happy that I'm having an ifar at the governor's residence and discussing these issues really directly and openly and in a in a raw and honest way with people. So, so I think it is really important that we create space for those honest conversations and I do that work as as governor every day. I I think that's one important conversation. Then I think there's another important conversation which is what is um our relationship going to be with the leaders in Israel? what is it that we're going to say about and I' I've been very very honest and and open about um my frustrations with 18:00 Netanyahu uh my view that he is um a leader who has created many dangers for Israel that he is not the leader for the future and that what Israelis need to do I believe I don't have a vote there this is up to them um is to chart a path forward uh that is going to create peace and stability in the region agent. Now, the only way they can do that um is if they have someone to do that with on the other side. And it can't be Hamas. They are a terrorist organization. They must be disarmed. They must be out of power. And there needs to be an opportunity to give rise to leadership there where you can then finally have a dialogue between the Israelis and the Palestinians in creating what my hope would be is a two-state solution where you can have a lasting peace in the region. And when you have that and people have hope about their future and they think about their future in the context of not in Hamas's case trying to kill Israelis as part of 19:01 their charter, right? That is like right in there in their charter. Then you can create an environment where hopefully you can have some stability in the Middle East. Now I realize that was a longer answer than maybe you wanted, but it's an important issue here. I think it's a really important we've got to figure out ways to have two conversations. one, here in this country on how to heal our communities that that feel this division, and I try and do that work every day. And then two, what do we want our foreign policy to look like going forward? What's in America's strategic interest? And I would argue it's in Israel's strategic interest to have peace um you know, in in in the region as well. And so to me, it's both those conversations and you've got to have both of them. And and I think it's important that even though there is a ceasefire now, even though the hostages have come home, there is a lot more work to do. Hamas is still armed. They're now killing their own uh their own people. Um they're continuing to destroy um you know, communities and areas in in Gaza. We have got to get Hamas out of power 20:01 and you got to begin to rebuild that region with the entire Arab world working uh together with um the Israelis and the Americans providing leadership. I I think that is what we need right now and we've got to be able to carry on both conversations at the same time. No, I appreciate the long answer. This is really important. It's a nuanced issue and it requires things that are not just emotional short, you know, everybody react like retreating to their corners and so I appreciate it. You use the word nuance and I I think it's a really important word and I I just want to make sure I'm stating this. I think it is really nuanced when you think about the future of the Middle East and you think about the kind of negotiations from a foreign policy perspective that that need to happen. Here's what is not nuanced. We cannot allow differences on how we view the region to be an excuse for anti-semitism in this country, to be an excuse for Islamophobia in this country or any form of hatred and bigotry. Because here's what is not nuanced. Hate is not 21:00 nuanced. We cannot allow space for that. And I think all leaders have a responsibility to speak and act with moral clarity, to call out that hate, to call out that bigotry, to call out that anti-semitism and that islamophobia. And on that conversation, Sarah, I think there should be no nuance. I hear you and I'm with you. Last question cuz we I know you got to wrap, but like, okay, we're so back. What do we do next? How do we what is the way we we what is the posture Democrats should have? Uh, I use the term we advisedly, but but uh I I would like to see some accountability for Donald Trump, some oversight. So, how do Dems proceed for the next 12 months to take back the House at minimum, if not the Senate? Govern effectively, get done. Show people you're making their lives better and demonstrate how the extremism and the chaos of Donald Trump is making their lives worse. how it's screwing over the farmer because the tariffs are making their their stuff cost more and shut down markets. How it's making your 22:00 health care cost double in Pennsylvania, which is what's going to happen when the ACA subsidies go away. When it's going to shutter rural hospitals because they gutted Medicaid in order to give a tax cut to people who didn't need it. I think being able to show the work, both your own positive, affirmative work to make people's lives better and also the work Donald Trump's doing that's making people's lives worse. We do that. We carry that momentum forward into the midterms. We win the House back. There's finally some accountability there. We win a bunch of governor's races there. I think we've seen just how critically important governors are in this country. Um, I think then we're going to be in a much stronger position going forward into the next presidential cycle. All right, let's go. Hey, next time in Pennsylvania, we're gonna have a yingling. We're gonna hang out. Uh Josh Shapiro, governor. You're a great son of a great state. Thanks so much for hanging out with us. Thanks, Har. Awesome to be with you.

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