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ABOUT TRUMP David Frum on Times Radio: Trump is malignant, surrounded by weirdos and ‘suspects’ PLAY YOUTUBE VIDEO Original article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7goMhEQt9U Peter Burgess COMMENTARY Peter Burgess
David Frum: Trump is malignant, surrounded by weirdos and ‘suspects’ Times Radio Mar 19, 2025 1.35M subscribers ... 1,803,520 views ... 43K likes “I see malignancy more than madness.” Senior editor at The Atlantic David Frum says Donald Trump is surrounded by “weirdos and suspect people.” Join this channel to get access to perks - / @listentotimesradio 📻 Listen to Times Radio - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/radio 🗞 Subscribe to The Times https://www.thetimes.co.uk/subscribe/... 📲 Get the free Times Radio app https://www.thetimes.co.uk/radio/how-... Transcript 0:00 I I don't think Donald Trump when he wakes up in the morning knows what he's going to do at bedtime I see malignancy more than Madness Trump has filled his inner circle with weirdos and suspect people David FR is a writer at the Atlantic and a former Special Assistant and speech writer to George W Bush when he was president he also worked with JD Vance Vance wrote for a website that from Rand ran from 2009 to 2012 called from forum.com and he joins me now David from welcome to times radio thank you so much thanks very much being with this look you wrote recently in the Atlantic about the opioid dispensers who operate around Donald Trump can you explain what those are well human beings do not want to live in a random Universe in different to Our Fate in different to our feelings um we construct systems of belief and meaning to explain Sinister events um so when a malign person seizes control of the government of the United States and begins acting in destructive ways there's a tremendous craving for an 1:00 explanation of some higher rationality or logic and because there of this craving there's a tremendous market for people who provide who satisfy that craving and say um look it looks like he just punched the baby for no reason at all except that he likes punching babies but actually the baby punching is in service of countering the Chinese State and you're not supposed to think very hard well how how does punching a baby help us counter the Chinese state but the point is your promise that that it will uh and there are a number number of people I don't name them in the article but I describe their role and function and I think um like the Lord High executioner and the Mado you can uh you can uh fill in the names yourselves um there's a lot of this going on with the tariffs uh with the Betrayal of Ukraine um with the abandonment of Europe there are people who are anxious eager to provide a mar uh anxious eager for meaning and people who will provide that meaning people who are basically Keen to say there are reasons behind this the reason why as he does 2:00 over Ukraine is to Bo European defense spending the reason why he wants to make peace with Russia is to is to enh is to strengthen himself in the forthcoming fight against China uh the reason why he wants tariffs against T Canada is to stop drug smuggling and you basically think all these things are nonsense it's not that I think they're they're also they're so obviously nonsense once you start working out it isn't up to me it's not a matter of opinion if you were to ask the person who gives you the rationality explain to me how this would work the system of iation collapses so instantly let's take for example um betrayal of Ukraine to strengthen America's hand in the Pacific so the Prime Minister of Japan came to Congress and gave a speech to a joint session of Congress in which the Prime Minister of Japan one of America's very most important allies in the Pacific said the defense of Ukraine is essential to the defense of ukra of Japan so he's he's a liar uh the argument goes like this the United States has a limited supply of credibility if it uses any of 3:00 that supply of credibility in Ukraine uh 3:03 that will uh make less credibility 3:05 available for other ends now the problem 3:08 here is first sorry it's like paying 3:11 your debts that you don't say I want to 3:13 impress the mortgage company and 3:15 therefore I'll default on the electric 3:17 bill that way I'll have more money to 3:18 pay the mortgage company the mortgage 3:20 company wants to know that you pay your 3:21 bills um but the next problem is Trump 3:23 has said repeatedly said during the 3:25 campaign twice one once in an interview 3:27 with Bloomberg once with some right-wing 3:29 site that he would abandon Taiwan and 3:32 since becoming president he's been more 3:34 circumspect but he's hinted pretty 3:35 broadly that he might abandon Taiwan um 3:39 so every signal to the Chinese is uh an 3:42 invitation and finally Trump is building 3:45 his own presidential Fortune quite 3:47 shockingly by selling meme coins to 3:50 Chinese investors um and in in one of 3:53 these deals a pardon for someone who's 3:55 now in prison a pardon who was in prison 3:57 is now an out of prison felon is part of 3:59 the deal so no one in China is going to 4:01 take seriously that Trump is trying to 4:03 contain them uh what they can see 4:04 instead is that he's smashing up the 4:06 alliance system that is the only hope to 4:07 contain China do you see um do you see 4:10 any method in the madness or do you just 4:12 see Madness uh I see malignancy more 4:15 than Madness I I don't think the 4:16 president is literally crazy I mean he 4:18 believes a lot of things that are not 4:20 true um but you know uh my my late uh 4:25 father uh in the days of handwritten 4:27 Cafe bills in Europe would always 4:29 minutely examined the handwritten Cafe 4:31 Bill and he and he said if they were 4:34 just bad at math you would expect half 4:36 the mistakes to be in my 4:39 favor okay so yeah so I don't I don't 4:42 think Trump Trump trump is delusional in 4:44 many ways but the the delusions are 4:45 always in favor of Putin in favor of 4:47 anti-democratic uh establishments and 4:50 let's take the point where it sometimes 4:52 said that Trump is attacking the 4:54 Europeans to get Europeans to spend more 4:56 in defense so why is the countries he 4:59 most mistrusts are those that are doing 5:01 just what he says um that uh uh his co-president Elon Musk personally abused uh the for Polish foreign minister and then the whole state of Poland Poland which has the highest and most robust defense program in Europe and what is the party in Europe they relentlessly Champion is the alternative for Germany which is a party that opposes increases in defense spending it it's this is not about more defense spending to counter Russia this is about not countering Russia I mean it's certainly true that Trump's been much more demanding of Ukraine than he has of of Russia and Vladimir Putin what do you think of the idea that his strategy despite all that is more likely to bring about peace than Joe Biden's strategy who was sort of content to more than content delighted to sustain the war um there are many criticisms to make of Biden's strategy Biden was uh a very cautious president and so his policy was find out what Ukraine needs give them half um and that was uh that saved Ukraine at the beginning but it made it difficult for Ukraine to bring the war to a successful um termination 6:00 uh I think it's true when Trump said I can bring peace in 24 hours that's true but peace on what terms that his plan always has been to cut off Ukraine abandon it and give it essentially to Russia um and and what Russ if you remember that keep in mind that what Russia seeks here is not some territory Russia is not short of acreage it doesn't need any acreage at Ukraine's expense what it wants is to ensure that the government of Ukraine is subject to Russian will as it was before 2014 that's the goal um and Trump's willing to give them that goal and for example that's why he he has made the resignation of zalinski one of his demands that if you can force Ukraine to rewrite its government at Russian demands then you've given the Russians the things they really want which is control over Ukrainian sovereignty so yes Trump can bring so-called peace but on Whose terms and with what damage to Ukraine to Europe to the United States you were part of the speech writing team that came up with the phrase Access of Evil fam famously used by George W bush to describe Iraq 7:00 and North Korea do you think Donald Trump has an axis of Evil in mind and if so who is in it is Europe in it uh I I think um CA uh Canada Europe Japan uh democracy honest Financial regulation um uh his Ex-Wives uh his children His Daughter by his second wife um I think they would be in the aess of evil for Donald Trump what do you think he thinks links all these things are they simply uh people bodies individuals countries who are opposed to what he feels he wants to do or is there something more whether he properly recognizes himself is there something more philosophical behind that what Trump has been doing domestically in the past few weeks has been a series of major initiatives of intentional illegality um he's testing he tests the limits um so for example he said I all all these budget cuts you're hearing about the president these are all funds appropriated by Congress the president does not have the legal power once Congress has appropriated money the 8:02 president has broad discretion to administer the money but he can't refuse to spend money that Congress has appropriated when he cuts the voice of America that's illegal um Trump just this past weekend defied a court order about the deportation of accused uh not even accused because there hasn't been any process but of believed presumed Venezuelan gangsters he defied a court ORD so so article one of the Cong of the Constitution gives Congress authority over spending Trump has challenged that has ignored that article two puts the courts in charge of supervising the legality of executive acts Trump has just defied that uh that's article three article two I beg is the Presidential Power and he's just this weekend tweeted out that he's not going to respect the pardons granted by his predecessor so systematically one by one whenever you show him a legal init he says right let me test that because what he wants is unbounded scope for will that is inconsistent with any legal system any system of uh rule of law and especially with the the American system of rule 9:01 okay look I'm I want to ask you in a minute whether you think the Republican party is coming back but I before that I want to ask you whether it's perhaps more severe than that whether you think America is coming back has America fundamentally changed this this last month and has it changed for good is the America that the world used to rely on is that gone um look we not to get all existentialist on you um but life is action life is decision so I I don't think we achieve anything useful by standing back from the scene stroking our chin puffing on the gws and uttering some meditation about what America is point is democracy is a very radical idea always has been um it's constantly undermined by enemies and opponents um and we are in one of those times of testing now and so I don't think when any of us should be looking outward and saying what's going to happen we should be looking inward asking what will we do if we don't as 10:02 Citizens respond uh to these attacks on the legal structure on alliances um then yeah things will be very very bad but if we do uh the residual strength of the democratic idea is also very powerful so so let's do that let's not comment let's act the I mean the the America of of the past the America certainly of your time in the White House was strongly interventionist you were often called a neoconservative um this is before you youve been end up voting Democrat because of your opposition to to Trump but do you think Trump's isolationism if we can call it that is that in any call it that why why shouldn't we why shouldn't we call it that uh one of Trump trump and his vice president and co-president have often talked about the value of American unilateral military action inside Mexico whether Mexico agrees or not um uh Trump wants to um has been uh just uh has been paying illegally I think money to El Salvador to Warehouse uh people whom the states does not want he's building this kind of 11:01 international prison system so these are not isolationist acts nor is the interventionist versus non-interventionist distinction very meaningful um again think of what Trump is proposing in Mexico um uh Trump and his vice president have repeatedly called on European nations to rewrite their domestic laws in favor of his cronies especially Elon Musk that's not non-interventionist um the idea that an American vice president would go to the Munich C security conference and say I have some ideas about which party should be in the German governing Coalition and which should not that's not un invention that's a long way not interventionist yeah yeah I think your your uh taboos against inviting neo-nazis into the government I think that time you know the time for that is passed and I say as the American vice president bring him in to the Coalition oh and bring in the Pro Russian people on the left too that was his message bring in the pro-russian people on far right and far left you go to you're not supposed to have opinions about those things this is not a 12:00 non-interventionist government and it's not an isolationist government it is a predatory government well so that's interesting that I mean that that notion of it being predatory is that the difference here then rather than America in intervening in the world for the sake of what for the sake of humanity for the sake of democracy for the sake of stability now the idea at least in Trump's mind is that America intervenes in the sake of the world in the in the in in the rest of the world for the for the sake of America alone the way American leadership since World War II has thought about matters is um take the Greenland story that you hear so much about so Greenland home to 880,000 people um uh is a a territory of the Kingdom of Denmark which is not a military Factor if the United States wanted to seize Greenland it easily could um and if it wanted to suppress the 880,000 people of Greenland if they attempted an Insurgency I mean I'm we're talking mad projects here but if that the United States could do all those things so why does it not well the answer is because um American Presidents 13:00 since 1945 have understood that America's Supreme interest is uh a system of non-aggression the United States fought three the three major Wars the United States thought between the end of World War II and the end of the 20th century were all in defense of boundaries fought a war in Korea against the North Korean invasion of the South fought a war in Vietnam against the North Vietnamese invasion of the South and it fought a war in Kuwait against the Iraqi attempt to abolish the Kuwaiti State um and these states weren't all great States sou Vietnam even Kuwait have a lot of you know they're not exactly democracies but the the United States said invasions across International borders are so dangerous the project of abolishing States altogether is so dangerous we uh will even use military power to stop it that's our interest and so uh the idea of picking up some frozen acreage in in Greenland a country which is a member of the EU and a member of NATO Greenland is a territory should a member of EU member of NATO if you want to have open a mine there's a legal structure where mining can be done if you want to increase the 200 American 14:02 Personnel in Greenland today to 400 the Danes would surely say yes they've often asked for more in the past every legitimate interest of the United States could be served through cooperation but for Trump the predation is the end um and that is a new chapter because as I say we fought in Korea Vietnam and Kuwait to say no predation let's let's turn now then to the Republican Party the one that you you knew and were a part of uh has that gone is that coming back it recover well it's very hard to start new political parties in the United States so uh and easier to change them than to replace them so probably the Republican Party something called that will uh exist for a long time uh but it has certainly reoriented its policies I mean this past weekend we have had uh the Secretary of the Treasury all over the airwaves defending High tariffs uh defending higher consumer good costs defending intervention in markets in a way that would have been Unthinkable for a republican of 20 30 40 years ago so the 15:01 part's changed the Republican party is now a much more statist party than it used to be a much more protectionist party than it used to be a much less respect for the Constitution and rule of law party than it used to be and that's that's why I don't feel at home there anymore that brings us on I think quite neatly to JD Vance you you you worked with him explain what he was like back then um so I I uh knew him as a quite when he was a quite young man he had returned from his service in Iraq uh he was I think on his way to Yale law school and I in those days I ran a website that was about the reform of the Republican party that uh offered a platform to Young Writers U we didn't pay much so they the writers were young um uh to talk about these kinds of ideas and he was someone who found his way to me and uh he was an extraordinarily impressive person intelligent knowledgeable uh obviously ambitious and obviously going places so he he published about a dozen articles on my 16:00 site under a pudm which not uncommon because a lot of people who wrote for me were Congressional staffers saying things their bosses wouldn't like and uh so and when they published under suum I always honored that so time went by we remained in contact uh after he went on to greater things he began writing for the Atlantic where I also worked um and we had contact and communication about his political Ambitions but I never talked about his work for me until he ran for the Senate um and then he did he commissioned something called self Oppo self- opposition research when you're running what you do is you know your opponents are going to be digging into your past so you dig into your own past and say Where am I vulnerable so the confirm he commissioned said one of your vulnerabilities is that you wrote so often for David from site because at that point we had moved very far apart and I was quite alienated from the Trump Republican party um and so this might be a problem for you uh the self Oppo was done by a Super PAC not by the JD Vance 17:03 campaign and super Pacs are not supposed to directly communicate uh with the campaign so before this Mo moment of Separation The Super Pac and the campaign had struck an arrangement where anytime the Super PAC had anything it wanted the campaign to see it would place it in a certain corner of the internet where the campaign would know to look uh the problem for the Super PAC was political magazine also knew to look there and so political magazine found the self opo and wrote a story of about this connection between J Vance and me at which point I felt free to talk about it he had revealed the story I I had not I I kept my promise um the Vance of those days was someone who's very much on the wavelength that I was traveling toward more economic modernization toward a more a more culturally modern Republican party uh to one that was um uh less paranoid and fearful um less accusatory uh and more willing to accept the normal noral turnouts of democratic 18:00 politics sometimes you win sometimes you lose since then of course he's moved in a very radical Direction I don't think with someone like Vance it makes sense to say well was he sincere then or is he sincere now I think he is the person he needs to be um but I think he's also very driven by short-term imperatives and so the person he is right now is someone who is very pleasing to Donald Trump very pleasing to the radical Fringe of the Republican Party um I don't know that this is the place you want to be when if you run for president but he may imagine that if he ever does run for president he can reinvent himself one more time do you foresee him running for president I mean certainly I fora I didn't foresee specifically that but I did foresee a big political future for him for sure but I mean looking forward from now you one would assume there will be another magga candidate on the assumption that Donald Trump is not the candidate next time do you think it's likely to be him um I think we are ma Maga is a um personality-driven movement a radical movement and a movement that is does not respect legality so if Donald Trump is still 19:03 alive I would not assume that he would respect the limit on three terms he has doesn't respect any other limits why would you respect that one and he may try to keep it in the family Dynasty and um promote one of his sons uh as I said this is not this is not a political party as normally organized I mean um Donald Trump can lead this party in all kinds of strange directions if Donald Trump had chosen to to be Pro Ukraine Maga would have been Pro Ukraine um when Donald When Donald Trump chooses to be anti-an Canada for no obvious reason Maga becomes anti Canada it's not something that has a kind of inner ideological uh logic it's more a leader principle party do you think are there limits to the extent to which JD Vance would cheerlead Trump agree with Trump is there some is there any value or steal or backbone there that you could see driving a wedge between him and Trump well I think if Donald Trump made good on his threat to literally 20:00 personally shoot somebody in Fifth Avenue in front of wies that's the bar is it I don't think he' go along with that Pro I I doubt it I I can't be sure but I don't think so wow okay I mean the the the JD Vance we saw in that famous that Infamous Oval Office uh Showdown with Vladimir zalinski was that the was that the guy you felt you knew well that person was uh was um tactical and strategic in a way that Donald Trump has never been so Vance uh Trump has has a medley of motives for being anti- Ukraine uh he's uh he's pro- Russian for whatever reason that is and zalinsky also didn't fall in with Trump's Wills uh in 2019 and Trump got impeached because zalinsky resisted Trump's demand that zilinsky manufactured dirt against uh Joe Biden for the benefit of Trump's 2020 campaign so there are a lot of personal grievances um but Trump is not really a consistent or ideological person Vance is um and he's Vance is not so much pro-russian in the way that 21:01 Trump is where there's a personal bond between Trump and Putin I don't think there's a personal bond between Vance and Putin instead Vance is part of a larger um transatlantic far right that sees the Russian State as an as an example of what they're trying to build in their own countries so he is as attached to Victor Orban as attached to the alternative for Germany as attached to the parties of the far right elsewhere in Europe and the UK um and what he was trying to do was um but he Vance also understood that the Republicans in the Senate still mostly support Ukraine and want to be on side and want to be helpful even as they fear Trump so he was trying to create a contradiction where uh you had to be uh either for zalinsky or for Trump he was trying to intensify that and whereas most of the Republican senators are trying to smooth it and say I'm for Trump and for zalinski Vance was trying to create a personal conflict which is the kind of conflict Trump never can forgive uh in front of the TV Camera which makes it again even more powerful 22:01 for Trump and then turn to the Republican Senators and say see it's it's choose it's it's zinsky or Trump there's no middle ground there's no way to support both that makes it sound like he knows exactly what he's doing Vance in a way that Trump certainly doesn't I I don't think Donald Trump when he wakes up in the morning knows what he's going to do at bedtime um but I I think Vance has got is working backwards from 2028 every and has got a list of things to do every minute between now and 2028 as I said I don't know that he will be the next Republican nominee I don't know that there will be any other nominee than Donald Trump but he has to assume that and he's working backward he's got a plan and he's executing last time Trump was president if we can remember back that far there were enough people within the party to sort to moderate him to Reign him in sometimes it seemed both his ideas and his actions and the things he was going to say and sometimes you could even see him Retreat as he was sort of pulled back by people within his orbit uh it seems like all of those people have been turfed out of not only the administ now but also the Republican party is there anyone left from his own 23:02 side who's going to push back on anything Donald Trump says or does well uh Trump has filled his inner circle with um weirdos and suspect people um I mean Tulsi gabard uh cash Patel Dan Pino is Cash Patel is the head of the FBI Dan Panino who's a um former MMA fighter and um podcast host with anger management issues I personally experienced that who's now the deputy head those people like that should be nowhere near positions of responsibility in any well-ordered state um on the other hand there are also people like Marco Rubio and treasury secretary bassent who seem like more or less normal people the difference between term one and term two is how that the seemingly normal people do appear to have been chosen for weakness of character um so um in Trump's first term there were people in um the economic wing of the administration would say you know what tra we not only do we believe trade Wars to be 24:01 destructive and wrong but we're going to say so and we're going to throw exert some weight and we're going to mobilize people to stop you um now he's got his secretary of Commerce and his Secretary of the Treasury um uh supporting the tariffs and making wild and Reckless promises the Secretary of Commerce who was kind of a loudmouth but no fool had a successful business career um is on TV saying that we can replace the income tax with revenue from tariffs even as we also use tariffs we spend that uh which is first mathematically impossible um but second also since the terorists are supposed to do all eight other magical things at the same time they can't both be a source of Revenue and a way to do all the other eight magical things like get rid of everyone else's tffs yeah but look look finally before I let you go I'm interested to know where you think this leaves the UK first in terms of what our prime minister K stama can do because he with his idea of being a bridge between between the United States and I guess the the rest of the world but also in terms of what it what it can do to our to our sort of more right-wing politics here because even even our 25:02 supposed answer to to Mago reform UK is seems wary of going as far as Donald Trump and um and and we have the conservatives who are not willing to go to even go that far so I'm interested just as you look across the Atlantic what do you see Happening Here well I backed off a little bit when you asked me to make predictions about the future but um if I were a British citizen uh I would be thinking uh you do have to believe that with two Trump terms the American Security guarantee is not a certain certainty um it's it's something that might go wrong and so Britain with European Partners needs to have a security structure uh to defend itself against Russia and maybe against China and not just conventional military attack but cyber warfare um corruption and other kinds of threats to security um you need to work much more closely with your European Partners so this is not a time to be a bridge uh this is um which is the position the British I think usually like to be in this is a time to say the partnership with France Germany Italy 26:02 Poland Ukraine that is the Supreme Paramount thing that must be fortified uh all these countries need to increase their military uh commitment but it's not just enough to buy the the machines and not just enough to even to recruit or even conscript as some countries are talking about the men uh you need coordinating structures Europe needs a single Navy which uh it needs a single Air Force it needs a command structure it needs a National Security Council it needs a coordinated response for nuclear weapons not that nuclear weapons are very useful in the modern world but they're the ultimate guarantee and you have to have a way to control them um you need a satellite system so that you're not dependent on American information we saw Ukraine discovered that that information can be turned off um the technical capacity is there the resources are there the human beings are there but the collective action problem has to be solved and uh Europe should be buy and there should be a a combined European procurement agency where you know the United States can laugh off Portugal saying maybe we won't buy f35s 27:01 but if there were an integrated EU UK uh air force with an integrated EU UK purchasing structure if that entity decided not to buy f35s Americans would have to pay attention but in the European context that would be I mean that would be that would be revolutionary and and and and is particularly unlikely at the moment with the countries generally drifting apart rather than closer together uh you live in Revolutionary times uh so you need revolutionary actions um and uh when something must be done there has to be a way to find a way to do it yeah David F thank you very much indeed for your time

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