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COMMENTARY THE COFFEE KLATCH ... MARCH 25TH 2025 with Robert Reich and Heather lofthouse Trump's Assault on Speech PLAY YOUTUBE VIDEO Original article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPj1XUFyE6k Peter Burgess COMMENTARY Robert Reich, Heather Lofthouse and the Coffee Klatch team do not have an 'answer' to the Trump. Musk DOGE wrecking ball policy that is being implemented since the inauguration. Some of the information I am seeing suggests that Trump et al are making a lot of progress in wrecking the functionality of the uS Government ... and that is very depressing. But when I get to 'connect the dots' around what is going on in the Federal Courts I am a little bit encouraged. The courts don't operate on a daily or hourly news cycle but at a very much more measured pace. But in the last week, it seems that Judeges are now looking very hard at their role and responsibilities in what has for all intents and purposes becomm a coup and the highijacking of the rule of law by an administration that would prefer lawlessness! During this past week it has becone clear the the judiciary is unlikely to let this happen ... and it is now possible to envirion that this is the beginning of the end of the Trump, Musk, Vance et al insurrection! I certainly hope so! Robert Reich and Heather Lofthouse did not go this far ... maybe next week there will be progress on the agenda I am hoping for! Peter Burgess
Is Any of This Legal? (ft. Rebecca Slaughter) \| The Coffee Klatch with Robert Reich Robert Reich 1.16M subscribers Premiered March 22nd 2025 The Coffee Klatch with Robert Reich Trump illegally fired two consumer protection champions from the FTC. Heather and I spoke with one of them about the oligarchs pulling Trump's strings — and the fight against corporate power. Join us as we chat with special guest Rebecca Slaughter. 00:00 The Week's News 35:12 Interview with FTC Commissioner Rebecca Slaughter 54:23 Republican's Town Hall Blowback 70 episodes The Coffee Klatch with Robert Reich Robert Reich Transcript The Week's News 0:00 and it is the Saturday coffee clutch with Heather Loft House and yours truly Robert Rich and Heather I I've got to ask you you know week number eight I mean it's like a It's like being on a marathon that never ends and is also disgusting i mean are you okay i want to just check in i'm okay i You're so kind i'm okay i mean I think we need a scale here out of 1 to 10 I'm probably a 7.8 which is not bad considering all the 7.8 holy cow that's that's I haven't reached I haven't reached five since you know January 20th but that's I hate to hear you know a lot of people keep coming up to me and they say 'Can he do this can he do this?' And what I keep on responding is 'Well he can't it's illegal.' But he is i know i mean if we don't have Can we talk about that well we'll talk about that tell me what we're going to talk about today let's talk about uh Elon and China right let's talk about Trump and education Doge and the economy and then we have a special guest FTC Commissioner Rebecca Slaughter oh I 1:06 just I can't wait to talk to Rebecca Slaughter Commissioner Rebecca Slaughter uh but on your first point uh Heather uh the the China and Musk a really a fascinating important issue uh because he was supposed to meet in fact he did meet with the secretary of defense that is Musk and Hexath yesterday but the New York Times reported on Thursday that the meeting was going to be a highlevel you know one of the most sensitive uh classified uh information briefings you can have about the Pentagon's preparations for war with China if we ever did go to war with China and this is I mean you you can't get more secretive you can't get more sensitive than this and Musk was going to even though Musk has I mean he's not even part of the government uh and he has all kinds of conflicts of interest uh people were very worried about it and then apparently because this story 2:06 appeared both in the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times uh Trump got a little bit nervous about it and called it off i mean or said he said go ahead with the meeting but don't talk about China that's But why is that he doesn't get nervous over anything what's his reasoning i think and we'll come back to this this is a point that's actually interesting to me he gets nervous not so much about the New York Times but about the Wall Street Journal uh and it uh it may have to do with Rupert Murdoch uh because Murdoch obviously sits there behind the Wall Street Journal the New York Post and Fox News so uh Trump is a little bit uh nervous about Murdoch's response and reactions and so this was a I was going to say it's a win for the press and also there was an anonymous tip i feel like anonymous tips are going 3:00 to be helpful in the next four years well that that's all we can hope for is anonymous tips and this came from the ins you know this is this is very deep in the Pentagon and very high up in the Pentagon uh you you can imagine if there was going to be this uh this meeting uh a lot of people in the Pentagon obviously are very concerned and the CIA about this because Musk remember it's not clear who Musk works for musk has his largest te Tesla factory in the world in Shanghai in China uh it was he got special permission to build it uh the the Chinese put$2.8 8 billion dollar into this factory and uh and and and you know Musk has been it's also uh you know that's where his market now is he's not selling a lot of Teslas in the United States he the only place he's selling electronic vehicles his Teslas is in China that's the only place they're increasing in sales so he needs China 4:01 and he been you know last year do you remember he said uh that Taiwan really ought to be part of China yep hello hello i mean he's he's he's he's somehow managing this divide and it's not clear frankly who he works for and so somebody in the Pentagon very high up leaked this to the New York Times and the uh and the Wall Street Journal because they were so gravely concerned the Washington Post no sorry the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal did respond to this leak by putting it on the front page and it had the desired effect apparently we don't know and anytime I know exactly we don't know but anytime that we have an example of Trump not actually excuse me Musk I keep confusing the two musk not having cart blanch access to everything I feel like it's a win i get so excited when I see the meeting when it happens 7.8 how far we've fallen uh in in terms 5:03 of I mean even national security i you know I I was never a a hawk on national security Heather i don't think you were but compared to what is happening right now uh and compared to the Republicans in Congress who seem to be willing to do l absolutely anything i mean there are a couple of exceptions but these Republicans don't care they seem not care about national security about China aboutQi Jinping and also uh Vladimir Putin and and uh and and Musk has very close ties with both and who is Musk he doesn't even have a security clearance i mean he doesn't have any clearance weren't you number 12 i can't remember what number you were in terms of you know if the president died and the VP died and everyone you were number 12 i mean I'm not even I'm not allowed to tell you i'm not allowed to tell you i think I read that on Wikipedia well okay if I'm not tell them uh but you're right musk doesn't have security i mean he has 6:06 some sort of clearance but it's not clear how he got it congress has never you know looked over Musk's vetting i mean he's never been vetted his finances have never been looked over nobody knows really very much about him there's been one biography written about him but that's not official and how so in terms of what we do you know when I was Secretary of Labor to get to be Secretary of Labor they had to go through everything every job I have ever had everybody I've ever known uh you know they've interviewed they went I mean they it was a big big deal musk has gone through nothing but he's an open book on X i mean that's what he would say that's right that's what he and he's done it himself he's done the security clearance himself he's the richest person in the world and he has 220 million followers on on X uh I 7:05 mean the power that this man has is really unrivaled except for that of Donald Trump and if he gave each one of those followers $1 it would still be less than what he gave Donald Trump to win in November and he has just put in another hundred million dollars into the Trump coffers just to sell what Trump is doing and we're going to get into this because it was on your list uh he also has been putting he's been threatening judges uh who disagree with what Trump and Musk are doing and supporting the Republicans who are pro-impeachment of those judges which I mean we're getting into it before we're getting into it's too well let's get into it let's get into this okay can we start with you had a great substack about the Department of Education i mean that was two days ago which feels like a hundred years ago 8:00 executive order to abolish the department of education what is happening good question what is happening we don't know exactly again same thing of same problem of lack of lack of transparency but Trump did sign an executive order Thursday afternoon basically uh telling the Secretary of Education the worldwide wrestling secretary of education uh no we've got to get rid of the Department of Education and please get make preparations fire half the people in the education department you know let me let me remind you and all our listeners and viewers again that Congress set up the Department of Education uh it's a hundred billion dollar operation it's a you know it's it's not small it's not insignificant jimmy Carter uh was the president when it was established uh a lot of people care about education and the department of education so how can Trump just do 9:03 this now how can Musk just do this well they do it by executive orders that get rid of that fire people i mean that's basically what they're doing uh they are pretending that they are still keeping the Department of Education open for Congress's purposes for legal purposes but they're firing everybody who works in the Department of Education which means the Department of Education really is not going to continue and to your point this is unpopular 58% of voters said 'No thanks we don't want it abolished.' And in that executive order there was more than just the Department of Education there were museums and this is part of a larger push which you've talked about which we've talked about um where we're looking at the defunding of universities we're looking at the defunding of the NIH and CDC and you had a good substack on this this week that talked about the American mind and so the reasoning behind this is not just 10:03 willy-nilly rampaging it's more specific than that will you share that Heather every tyrant in history uh going back to uh you know Julius Caesar uh has tried to get rid of learning get rid of books you know the Nazis burned the books uh you know slaveholders didn't allow slaves to become educated it was it was a you know it was a if you were a slave and you tried to understand writing and learning you know you were going to be punished severely uh why do tyrants want people to be ignorant because they know that an educated population is the enemy of tyranny it's very hard for tyrants to rule over people who are educated and this is why since the beginning of you know the United States education has been so important free universal public education horus man all of the great educator educators in history uh come 11:05 out of this notion that democracy needs education uh and so you have and so you have Donald Trump mounting a direct assault on not only the Department of Education but calling for libraries to be cut the amount of money for libraries the amount of money for museums uh cutting uh as you said the all of the funding sources for our universities threatening Columbia University with $440 million withdrawal of money uh other universities that are on his list of of of sort of bad universities for some strange reason uh and uh and and this is all part of a Republican Trump plot it also when I say Republican I mean this is part of their assault on primary and secondary education you can't teach about America's history of 12:00 slavery you can't mention uh you know that we we we we actually did engage in a kind of uh well you know look at what what we did to the Native American population of the United States you can't even talk about this uh so the Republicans and Trump especially have taken on education the way tyrants in history have taken on education right and it's I mean I like the term civic virtue which you know we've talked about for years and the founding fathers talked about the fact that people who are educated that's how you run a democratic republic you have to have people who understand civics who understand a broad range of things to know what their representatives are going to be fighting for and this is counter to that so it's not just people fight for education for education's sake which is also fine by me but it's it's so as a dismantling of democracy tactic the dismantling of democracy tactic 13:02 that's exactly right and you know education and deliberation part of part of democracy is deliberating it's not just getting information it's being critic you thinking critically about that information uh and and and deliberating with others you know is that a problem is it truthful what can we understand about it how does this fit into a larger pattern that's all education uh and that's what tyrants really fear right and protecting dissenting voices i mean that's what I know you I've taken your classes you talked about that in our classes and to your undergrads i saw them The the first thing I tell my classes and you were there in my class and you remember I said the best way of learning seek out people who disagree with you if they disagree with you find out why they disagree with you talk to them test what your opinions are against what theirs are that's what learning is all about learning is about provocation learning 14:05 is about dissenting voices learning is about uh all sorts of uh of of of a diversity of voices but this is what Trump and this is what the Trump Republicans and this is what tyrants in history have tried to subdue right and the supposition there is that it's civil right to a certain I mean it is it can be heated conversations but it can't just be shut down constantly and it can't be so I mean now it's so angry it's so it's so angry that's it's dark and angry and you know it's the left so-called uh has not been completely free of guilt here because over the past 10 years there have been incidents where uh you know left-wing students and professors have not wanted to allow uh voices of right so-called right-winger uh students and professors to be heard you know I'm I'm increasingly uncomfortable with these terms left and right because right now they mean 15:04 nothing we're in a war between democracy and fascism it's not left and right but I wanted to point that out i mean in the university in our schools and every place else dissent uh reasonable as you pointed out just now civil dissent is is absolutely the core yep so back to the legalities of things because I find it handy that you went to law school so when we have coffee I can lean into that um it was it wasn't handy at all well it's handy for me in these coffees so you these chats you can he abolish can we use that word the department of education the president you talked about Jimmy Carter 45 years ago congress approved this I mean can he actually can we get into some court decisions and what's going to happen I mean can he abolish it Bob this this is this is the critical point because every other constraint on Trump is disappearing I 16:03 mean Republicans in Congress certainly are not doing anything uh sadly uh Democrats have decided pretty much to do nothing look at Chuck Schumer uh and although the Democrats in the House have been pretty vocal uh but you don't have the kind of of of counteroffensive to Trump that even we had in in the first Trump administration even though this Trump administration is much worse so where is the opposition coming from the constraint is coming from the federal courts from the judges uh from now from the district court judges because they're the first line of defense uh and they have uh by my total I don't know Heather you might have a different number i have about 120 cases now in the federal courts uh and they are starting to come the federal judges are starting to come out and they're saying no you don't have Donald Trump 17:04 Elon Musk you do not have the authority to do what you're doing you are breaking the law and uh even this past week it's been remarkable the number of judicial decisions that have whether it's a preliminary injunction or it's an actual decision on the merits these judges are saying no you can't do this but it's never going to be the case that he goes on Truth Social raises his hand and say 'My bad you're right i'm taking it back.' You know let me I'm going to issue a little piece of paper it's going to say where I screwed up that's not going to happen so I feel like we're in this in between phase right where we're all kind of white knuckling and holding on and so we think you know is this a constitutional crisis not this very second i mean what defines a constitutional crisis when do we where are we in the spectrum of listening to the courts or not listening 18:01 to the courts well that that's a very good question there is no official definition of a constitutional crisis what we have assumed is that a constitutional crisis occurs when the branches the three major branches of government the congress and the executive and the judiciary uh simply are at loggerheads and they cannot move forward now we do have Congress and the president at loggerheads in the sense that the president is doing things that Congress would never have approved of but Republicans in Congress are officially in charge of both chambers right now and are not willing to buck Trump so that leaves the courts now if if Trump were to say 'I will not go along with you a judge that says for example uh as uh judge uh I think Boisberg said this week District Court George Boisberg you cannot send all 19:01 these Venezuelans uh to prison in El Salvador who knows what you what reasoning who knows that they've done anything wrong?' Uh there's using the Alien Enemies Act in particular right that's right of the 19 of the 18th century I mean an act that requires that the United States be at war uh to justify itself and so Boseber is saying 'No no you can't do it in fact those planes uh should turn around and and come back to the United States that have all those Venezuelans on them.' Well of course uh the Trump administration said 'No uh those planes have already landed.' uh and we can't do anything about it so that's that's still in a state of flux and and to be clear you you put this in your Substack but he so Trump came out on Truth Social and said you know this guy needs to be impeached and then he also said he's a radical left lunatic but keep in mind he's the one that released Hillary Clinton's emails and also said Trump does not have to give up his tax returns 20:05 yes this is not a radical left judge this is if anything this is a Republican right-wing judge but it doesn't matter trump doesn't like what he what he did so Trump is going to wants him to be impeached and then the Chief Justice of the United States John Roberts said publicly in a kind of a rebuke a rare public rebuke to Trump you can't impeach you can't threaten to impeach a a judge because you disagree with the judge's opinion the proper way of dealing with that is you appeal the opinion to the court of appeals that's it it's not an appropriate response inappropriate said uh I mean he could have gone much farther and say you know you don't threaten judges in ways that make judges worry about their safety and the he also didn't say President Trump and so then President Trump went on the news said 'Well he didn't mention me.' Well that's I mean this is not new in 21:05 the sense that there had been a previous instance in the first seme first semester I want to say the first term what are you a teacher where where where there there was a little bit of a clash between Roberts and Trump um but uh no the interesting thing about this particular clash is that uh there was not much that Trump did uh in terms of responding and more importantly to your point uh Trump has not said I'm not going to obey what these judges decide uh if he did then we'd really be in a constitutional crisis uh but it was interesting Heather i don't know if you uh if you heard or saw the Trump interview with Laura Ingraham uh this week on Fox uh that interview did not get much much play but it was very important because on that interview and 22:03 Laura Ingraham's Fox News is a MAGA magnet i mean it's basically only watched and listened to by Magna uh true magnets magnus what what Trump did is he said 'I'm going to obey the law as the courts interpret the law i am not going to disobey i'm not going to do what my vice president uh JD Vance has urged me to do i'm not going to say in effect as Andrew Jackson President Andrew Jackson was reputed to have said apocryphal.' Um I I don't think it it he did this uh but Vance has said that's Vance has said you know you have like President uh Andrew Jackson what Trump ought to do is say the Supreme Court has made his decision now the Supreme Court should try to enforce it and obviously the Supreme 23:00 Court can't but this is important because Trump said he would abide by these decisions and then he goes off to play golf i mean this is my point i mean I want is he actually abiding by them i feel like we're in this in between where he's now said that and there have been some rulings including about Doge right and Elon Musk's place in you know in terms of authority there were some technically technically I I beg your pardon for interrupting please interrupt technically technically Trump is not bucking the courts not yet and when Laura Ingram asked him on Fox News you know can you imagine any instance when you might actually do this he said 'No we can't do this.' Uh which which is interesting why is Trump so determined to not have a constitutional crisis i I think a lot of it has to do back to um 24:05 the uh back to the the New York Post and back to the Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch because what Trump is uh was very sensitive to is that the New York Post in a series of op-eds and editorials has said Trump don't buck the courts obey the courts don't create a constitutional crisis crisis and Murdoch is sending a signal to Trump and Trump reads the New York Post every day right yes the only I mean he's not he's not he's not reading my Substack I assure you um and he's not reading even the New York Times no but he's reading the New York Post and that New York Post is saying to him Murdoch is saying to him through the New York Post don't try to create a constitutional crisis you're gonna lose and I'm not gonna support you you're on your own this is wild how politics works i mean 25:05 couldn't he just text him and say the same thing it's so much better if it comes through the Wash the New York Post honestly it's so interesting i love that you you pointed that out in a Substack this week too i wish you'd write a Substack it's been a while do you need to go and write a sub am I keeping you from writing a Substack yes I have one right here that I've got um but so also so and that a little bit of good news was the 25,000 fired federal workers there was a you know a court opinion about them too right reinstating them yes they were they were all probationary workers now they were they didn't have full-time official um you know civil service status uh but the court did uh in fact there were two court opinions Heather uh two courts in different jurisdictions both district courts said you have got to rehire uh Doge has no authority to fire those workers uh and those workers had every reason to expect 26:05 that they were going to continue to be uh public employees uh and uh yes they are supposed to be reinstated i don't know how the office of personal management is going to manage their reinstatement uh because a lot of people when they are told that they are fired they duh they go and get another job uh or try to I mean it's been or they try to Yeah but also just the HR can you imagine the HR of trying to rehire oh I'm exhausted for the federal workers who still have their jobs of rehiring the federal probationary workers who are now coming back i mean the whole thing is chaos i mean it's just chaos between Musk and Trump uh and you know I can't imagine uh how anybody gets anything done in that administration but they do seem to be churning out executive orders at least executive orders that's you know you print it he signs it you got the cameras in the office um so the 27:04 other thing is that Musk he's not using an autopen he is not an auto pen no can't use the auto pen because that's null and void um but also Musk has been so loud on Twitter X per usual but also and we mentioned this a little bit earlier calling for these impeachments of judges who is he to do that his popularity is not great which is fascinating to see because Trump's is also not great but I would think Trump's disapproval rating would be even higher well it it's now before you do i mean it's it is remarkable i mean this is still the honeymoon period and there are more Americans who disapprove of him and his performance as president than approve of his performance as president uh just eight weeks a little over eight weeks i mean that's and it's low compared to other presidents and it's low compared to his first presidency 28:01 absolutely yeah uh Musk is not helping and I think that's what you're getting at musk's approval rating is even lower than Trump's but does Trump like that this is my question is this helpful to him i mean does this is he taking some of the heat is he I wonder it's a good it's a good question i I I mean you I could argue that yes it's great to have somebody who is a lightning rod if you're the president have another lightning rod uh but uh he may be pulling Trump's disapprovals down too that is Musk because so many people are are angry uh and you know look at these town halls every time a Republican goes home to his or her district and has a town hall people are screaming at them Republicans Republican members of Congress uh about usually about Musk exactly and so what has Doge been up to this week besides their leader shouting on X well I think I think the most damaging from the standpoint that we're 29:04 talking about that is public opinion is going after social security uh the third rail talk about a lightning rod talk about the craziness i mean one reason that Musk's popularity is pulling down Trump's and and is going down uh himself uh is because you don't you know you don't fool around with people getting access to social security you fire so many social security uh agency administration workers that they they can't even man the phones or or be there for for people who call in uh and I am of the age Heather where occasionally I do collect Social Security and I do occasionally need a little bit of information and up until recently when I called Social Security you know I got a I got a response very very quickly u now not so sure and when when you have seniors don't get the seniors of America upset 30:06 with you and not only is the boomer generation huge but they are politically very active even if they're not Republican even if they're not Democrat even if they're independent even if they're they're they're usually not activist you take away their social security or or jeopardize their social security they are going to be infuriated but you mentioned the phones i mean the whole thing is Doge is trying to take away phone capacity i mean they want it to be all online and in person everyone's having to reverify their identity they claim this is going to cut huge amounts of waste and fraud blah blah blah their favorite phrase of the this year when in fact it's yeah it's 0.0065% of the total budget this little bit that they claim to sweeping policy change of social security budget i mean that's and they are claiming it's saving 31:01 money while it it means that people cannot get their social security or older people who can't uh they they can't walk very easily they can't appear in person at the social security office and they're closing and getting there and waiting in line it's it's a mess they're they're the targets that they are choosing are so utterly stupid uh I mean really stupid but also Trump has said we're not going to cut social security hasn't he or if we did it would be you know he kind of goes around that one too well he says we're not going to cut Social Security but what you're doing if you're making it harder for people to get Social Security if you're making harder for people to call Social Security you are putting up roadblocks to Social Security and you are effectively cutting Social Security i think the other thing that's so critical is the uncertainty that an anxiety that this is giving to so many people i went to the post office yesterday and there was a person in front of me in line i 32:04 want to say she was in her 80s and she went she was right in front of me and she went and she said 'I better buy some forever stamps i'm not sure if they're still going to be valid but the tariffs are about to drop and I don't know what's going to happen with the economy.' I mean she literally said this the postal worker who I've known forever because it's my local was kind of like okay cool I got to ring you up um but it she was so scared she basic and was announcing this like I am so worried about what's happening i'm buying extra forever stamps because I'm hoping that that rate stays the same and they still work in the coming months now now extrapolate that uncertainty that worry that that person in line in front of you at the to the entire population of the United States in terms of what's happening what's happening with tariffs what's happening with inflation what's happening with the economy what's happening with social security i I'm confused i'm worried i don't know heather this uncertainty itself is an economic problem this makes more people 33:02 want to even even even if they're not capable of saving very much because they're living paycheck to paycheck they're going to hold back some of their spending because they don't know about the future and if they hold back their spending the entire economy starts collapsing or we get into the territory which I don't really want to get into because it's such bad territory and that is we've get we get a combination of recession and inflation it's happened before uh under Jimmy Carter's watch uh and we could have stagflation again the good news is that the polling people are mad at Trump about the economy right now currently so I think that's obviously a reflection of what you just said good news if you if you're on our side of the ledger i mean not good news if you're uh if you're an average working person no it's but it's good news for the truth it's good news for the truth that realizing that he 34:01 isn't going to save everything and it isn't going to all be all great and his campaign promises are false um in other good news we take every bit of good news we can i know and I like your Friday one of them substacks that you send where you sometimes give us some reasons for nauseous you're nauseously optimistic we've talked about two of them you know one of them is the courts and and that Trump is not fighting back at least you know not not now and the second is a lot of people coming to these these um these town halls and sounding off uh and and actually we we also talked about the economy uh being down and his ratings being down and that's all good in terms of getting the truth out you're absolutely right and I do want to pull some of these clips of the town halls and the booing and all the goodness that 35:00 is happening the good trouble across the country so we'll do that in a minute but first let's have a conversation with FTC Commissioner Rebecca Slaughter who we have here with us who was fired this week welcome Rebecca here we are with Interview with FTC Commissioner Rebecca Slaughter Commissioner Rebecca Slaughter thank you for joining us so our first question is why were you illegally fired this week thanks thanks Heather uh thanks Robert for having me it's a great question i don't know the answer to it um and I don't know because the president didn't say uh in the letter that or the email I should say that was sent to me from someone in the White House office of presidential personnel purportedly on behalf of the president he basically just said the president believes that he can fire you so he's firing you commissioner Slaughter first of all thank you for being with us i'm going to call you Commissioner Slaughter because I don't think you were legally fired you are still FTC Commissioner Slaughter isn't that appropriate to call you Commissioner yes i would tell you you 36:04 should feel free to call me Becca but if you're going to use a title it should be commissioner because I agree that the uh firing was not or the purported firing was not legal because there is a very very clear statutory law that has been around for over a hundred years that says FTC commissioners can only be removed for neglect inefficiency and malfeasants so in other words for cause uh and the president did not assert any cause to fire us because there is no cause to fire us which means the alleged firing was inconsistent with the statute and with clear Supreme Court precedent that's been around for 90 years that says that statute is constitutional now you you were fired the same time that Commissioner Bado was filed fired is that right the two of you were the dem so-called Democratic appointees to the five member Federal Trade Commission uh and uh I didn't realize you were you 37:01 were told of this where you were told that you were fired by email yes i was at my uh daughter's elementary school and um at the end of the day and uh surrounded by 80 elementary school kids working on a drama club production and I checked my email uh and found a a note from the White House Office of Presidential Personnel uh so yeah it was pretty shocking oh so what kind of world are we living in heather it kind of reminded me of the Sex in the City episode where you she got broken up with on a postit i don't know if that I don't know if that cultural test touchstone is too dated but Oh it's so brutal yeah i hope you were wearing a fabulous outfit just like Carrie Bradshaw would have been i I am many things but no Carrie Bradshaw well so it's so interesting i don't think as many people know about the FTC as we would like to so five 38:00 commissioners right so Trump is president he's Republican he gets to dub three of the five right who are going to be of his party as Republican now it stands that there are only two commissioners on the website because I looked at the website this morning both Republican can you tell our audience a little more about how the FTC is supposed to function and how it's not doing that right now sure well actually I'm going to correct you a little bit Heather because the commission is the commission is a five member commission by statute but it does not say that the statute does not say that the current president gets to appoint all five commissioners what the statute says is that there are five commissioners no more than three may be from the same party uh and by tradition that has meant that three are from the party of the president but I for example was originally appointed by President Trump in 2018 as a minority commissioner and I have served through that duration i was 39:00 reappointed by President Biden to a term that ends in 2029 uh and was confirmed into that position last year so uh the first point is that um it's not that the president gets to appoint three from his party and two from the other party it's that the statute says members of the commission serve terms fixed to the calendar and no more than three may be from the same party because the statute intends and Congress intended for the commission to be composed of members from different ideological and political backgrounds to create balance and uh dissent and uh shared drive towards consensus where possible i thought you uh had also asked about what the Federal Trade Commission does and what it's less able to do now in this universe and I think it's a really important question because it's very easy in the alphabet soup of Washington to think oh FTC trade is that something about like international tariffs um and actually what the FTC does is really pay 40:01 attention to ordinary Americans and some of the most important ways uh where they interact with the economy we are the police for corporate lawb breakaking not criminal lawbreaking but the ways corporations can lie and cheat and compete unfairly in order to get ahead in the marketplace so we call that competition and consumer protection still kind of lofty terms what it means for real people is we please fraud we please scams we police uh unfair conduct around drug prices that will keep your insulin too expensive we challenge grocery store mergers like last year we successfully challenged the proposed merger of Croer and Albertson's which would have been the largest grocery store merger in history we challenge hospital mergers we're currently in a bunch of different uh cases challenging big tech conduct and consolidation um we have rules preventing junk fees and we are litigating challenging the largest landlord for ch uh stacking junk fees 41:01 onto people's um rental agreements and so it's the kinds of things where for people in their everyday lives we're looking out for making sure that the economy is free and fair for consumers for workers and for small businesses um so that's what we're supposed to be doing federal Trade Commission that's what you're supposed to be doing federal Trade Commission uh by the way is the oldest independent regulatory agency in the federal government founded in 1914 i know because I used to work there um but Commissioner what do you think is the reason that Trump fired you and your fellow Democratic quote unquote commissioner is it about a test case i mean is this going to go to the Supreme Court uh do they want to test the question of whether independent regulatory agencies can even exist yeah well they've said pretty clearly that they don't think independent regulatory agencies can exist the acting solicitor 42:05 general about a month ago said the administration would no longer defend the constitutionality of independent agencies uh notwithstanding the 90-year-old clear Supreme Court precedent that has not been overturned despite opportunities for the court to do so so yes I think they want a test case but the other question that you asked is why why do they care you pointed out I'm a minority commissioner i'm not going to control their agenda i'm not going to interfere with their ability to do it and I think that's the really important question why do we care about having independencies independent agencies with multimember uh bipartisan voices and I think the really important here point here is that it is about accountability and transparency uh I can't control the agenda but I can call out where I think something is not being done fairly in accordance with the law if I think there is corruption um it is not lost on me at 43:00 all that of the uh group of CEO group of CEOs who were surrounding the president and his inauguration the FTC is in active litigation against most of their companies um and so it's really important that the law be enforced without fear or favor and when we say that what we mean is it should be enforced without the fear of getting fired for refusal to do a favor for the president's political donors and buddies and if the president can remove me he could also remove the chair of the agency for refusing to dismiss a case against one of those donors or um refusing to uh challenge a merger that one of those donors is proposing and so I think that we should be very very suspicious about what this removal of or attempted removal of transparency and accountability means for the administration of the law without fear 44:05 or favor i I just want to do a follow-up um question on that because we're talking about the motives for the White House for the president in essentially firing you illegally one is the possibility he wants to do a test case getting up to the Supreme Court on whether the Supreme Court will reverse its old president Humphrey's executive about an independent regulatory agency which happens to be the Federal Trade Commission the second though you just brought up and that is that the president's cronies are you know a lot of CEOs who are have also been targets of the Federal Trade Commission and maybe he wants to do them a favor which is it which do you think is the primary motive well to be clear I'm not really in a position to speculate on the president's motives but I also don't think those points are mutually exclusive um I think that uh they could 45:03 both be uh goals or there could be some other goal that I'm not even aware of because again no reason was given in the email that was sent to us and the press secretary when she was asked about it didn't give any reason um and I think what's important to note is that the tradition of bipartisan accountability and bipartisan commissioners goes back to the founding of the FTC but also was one in which our current majority commissioners actively participated when they were in the minority they engaged in disscent and debate and also importantly drove towards consensus on issues i actually think that's one of the best parts about the bipartisan feature of the FTC you get to pressure test different ideas you get to understand a different perspective you get to seek out and sometimes in fact often find consensus and that consensus helps build consistency and durability in the law and that is a really positive 46:02 thing not just for the individual people who rely on us for the protection but also for honest businesses who want predictability and stability in the markets that's it so plans to appeal I'm assuming yes we will be in court yes absolutely we will be in court uh details to be announced but I I think it's not a close call about whether to challenge this legally because it was not a close call about whether this purported filing firing is illegal um so it the how it plays out we will see but there is no doubt that Commissioner Bedoya and I will um be challenging this action uh can I ask you just a little bit about that appeal it's is it both of you are going to appeal are you part of a class action um are you being supported uh financially i mean it's not easy to appeal as an individual uh how is this going to be how does this work it's not and um I think our intention at this point is to file together i don't think two people make a class i think we 47:05 are just two individuals um for what it's worth we're two individuals who I think uh you know it's really bad news that this has happened but what is good news is a lot of people care and a lot of people have been offering support um in terms of both legal support uh emotional support and encouragement um so I think we're really committed to the fight and we feel really well supported in it and uh exactly how it proceeds legally we will see but um but the case is really important and you were the first commissioner to give birth while serving right talk a little bit about that yeah it's been a really interesting experience for me um I have four kids uh when I was confirmed originally in 2018 my confirmation hearing was 9 days after the birth of my third daughter uh third 48:02 child and uh I started serving i was sworn in on her one month birthday um and so that was an unusual experience and then I was lucky enough to uh get pregnant with a fourth child and she was born in May of 2020 which is uh if you think about the calendar not an ideal time not an ideal time for having a baby um and it was the first time that I am aware of certainly that any commissioner at the FTC but also as far as we could tell at any other agency had given birth while in office um so it was uh it was a learning experience um but one that I am really grateful to have had uh I love the job and I love my kids um and part of why I love the job honestly is because I love my kids uh the job that we do protects kids not just mine but all kids the FTC is the cop on the beat 49:00 for children's privacy and online safety and that's an incredibly important role that I have a front seat in understanding as a parent um and so uh the I think of my younger two kids as my FTC babies uh and they have grown up with and at the agency you know you remind me that in 19 I guess it was 1980 or 81 under chairman Michael Peruk a little bit before your time uh we had a rule that would have prevented uh cereal makers and candy manufacturers and so on from advertising directed at children it was called the Kid Vid rule do you Oh Kid Vid is legendary it was probably legendary because Congress basically took away our appropriation uh for a little while until we we promised not to do anything like that that was the first time a big business big corporate money 50:00 uh was very evident in American politics so um I want to I want to thank you commissioner for being with us i just had one final question that gnaws at me and that is the new the chair of the FTC Andrew Ferguson when when you were when you got this email did you say to him or did you have a communication with him i don't want to do anything or say anything that that that might come out in court but did he did he lock you out of your office i mean what was his response uh to this uh illegal firing he uh asked me to confirm whether I had gotten the email and I did um and I asked him what his plan would be with respect to my staff honestly what I was the most immediately concerned about were the people who work for me um who are really good honest public servants and I wanted to know whatever happens to me what would happen to them so honestly we just 51:02 talked about the logistics uh I have been locked out of all of my technological systems i haven't attempted to go back into the office i assume I wouldn't be allowed but I haven't attempted to it because it doesn't do anything to Chairman Ferguson but it would put the security guards the staff at the agency in a difficult position and I have no interest in making things any harder for those public servants than they already are right now in the middle of the broad assault on public servants that is happening so I I haven't tried well I I want to thank you and I'm sure Heather joins me for your public service uh and just to take what you said and magnify it uh being a public servant uh is a noble calling even in normal times these kinds of times are not normal times and we need to support and uh really 52:02 celebrate our public servants especially now so thank you for being with us can I just echo that point can I just echo that point for one second i think it is an incredibly important one i mentioned that I'm getting a ton of support and a ton of attention and I feel um really appreciated and that's great i don't think most of the public servants who are under assault right now are getting that same kind of support and attention and they really deserve it and they really need it um these are people who are sacrificing better paying jobs with shorter hours uh because they want to help their fellow Americans and that exactly like you said is a noble calling and something that should be appreciated and they are really having a hard time right now and so um I know there's there's something in the zeitgeist that suggests that people who serve their fellow citizens are some sort of are are 53:00 lazy in some way and it's just not the case in my experience i've spent nine months of my career in the private sector and the entire rest of the time in the public sector and so I have a particular affinity and appreciation for the people I've worked with throughout my career and they're really really having a tough time right now those who have lost their jobs but even those who haven't and so I appreciate your call to support them i think it is enormously important well we will we will all get through this but Commissioner thank you thank you so much for having me i found her so inspiring and it's amazing the way these federal workers are fighting the good fight i I agree with you Heather um and remember she was fired out of absolutely nowhere i mean she expected to stay there of course uh and she and her fellow Democratic appointee uh were were just their their jobs were eliminated trump just said 'I'm sorry I disagree with you bye.' Right after he put her in 54:04 during Trump won as you call it yes and uh you know what's also interesting is that Andrew Ferguson who is the chair of the Federal Trade Commission he then proceeded to lock her out of her office common tale that's happening now so Republican's Town Hall Blowback let's look at um what's happening around the country at these different town halls so Republicans are throwing town halls or hosting things and people are coming in and not happy and the topics are often social security right and things related to Doge and Musk what have you been seeing same thing and I've been hearing a lot about these things i mean the the Republicans um have I mean the leading Republicans have told Republican members of Congress rank and file don't have town halls anymore uh you know do it remotely if you have to do it at all because these town halls have become so rockous so crazy i mean I 55:07 was just uh in touch with somebody in W in in Wyoming uh in and they they had a town hall now Wyoming you can't get you know redder or more Republican than Wyoming and somebody stands up in a town hall and says 'I am a Republican i'm an Allen Simpson Republican and I want to know why you're destroying the federal government.' It's good it's good there is enthusiasm so let's hold on to it and let's take a look here's a Okay let's talk about this let's talk about this so your proposal to solve this is to tax the [Applause] rich weather service [Applause] you you have a perception that America is spiraling to uh some kind of constitutional crisis 56:09 and when will you stand up to them and say that is enough [Applause] the end result of the fraud and abuse that has been discovered already [Music] Absolutely no proof he's gotten rid of birthright citizenship [Applause] illegal as hell the other one is the program [Applause] [Music] i am very glad someone is looking at all for the 57:01 waste a mandate to the president from the American people am I correct no there's not a mandate by the American people overwhelmingly 30% the Congressional Budget Office you know what it's going to be by 2035 it's going to be 59 trillion 59 did I tell you did I do is not dismantling social security it's so bizarre to me how obsessed you are with federal government but but here's the thing [Applause] [Music] you guys are going to have a heart attack if you don't calm down i'm sorry your your hysteria is just written over the top wyoming Nebraska Texas Oklahoma i mean we're not talking about uh you know liberal enclaves in America heather 58:02 these are the reddest of the red these are Republican places Republican districts and these members of Congress Republican members of Congress not only are they getting booed they are they are going to be removed from office they are they are on the edge of the end of their careers and I hope they get the message i know and then we have Bernie continuing the tour bringing in AOC yesterday it's good to see and interesting Bernie and AOC they are going to Republican enclaves as well they're going to Republican states they're going to Republican districts uh where even the Republican members of Congress have refused to have town halls given all the booing given all of the all of the anger uh but uh so you know I think I like to think of this Heather as good news the American public we are not Republicans we're not Democrats we are 59:02 members of a society in which uh we are being abused by a president who has absolutely no constitutional right to do what he's doing here here here should we meet back in a week and keep going let's let's keep going on that that was a good note to end on i want to I want to thank you Heather for you're you're just you're just terrific and I I want to thank everybody out there for your tenacity and your commitment and your dedication uh we will get through this see you next week [Music]

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