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COMMENTARY THE COFFEE KLATCH ... MARCH 8TH 2025 with Robert-Reich and Michael-Lahanas-Calderon Has Trump's Dominance Reached its Ceiling? Michael Lahanas-Caldero and Robert Reich PLAY YOUTUBE VIDEO Original article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xihcmPAeWnY Peter Burgess COMMENTARY This edition of the weekly Coffee Klatch is a bit more 'upbeat' than in the past few episodes ... or perhaps it is that it is not quite so much of 'deep doom and gloom'. It was very interesting to hear some of the commentary around generational age with Robert Reich in his 70s and Michael Calderon in his 20s. It fits my own attempts to explain where I was physically and intellectually in my 20s and now 60 years later in my 80s. My take on difference in age is evolving. It needs to be a complex analysis while at the same time being easy to understand. Not an easy thing to achieve! Part of the driver of my interest in this goes back to my undergraduate days at Cambridge. The economist Joan Robinson who had worked with Keynes since the 1930s was a prominent economics personality during my student days. Both Keynes and Robinson were critical of the way economists had a focus on Gross National Product (or Gross Domestic Product) as a key metric to measure the health of the economy. I learned that GNP and/or GDP had been introduced many years before as a 'temporary' fix to help guide government decision makers during the war years. They were surprised that these metrics had not been refined and were still in use when I was an undergraduate! Fast forward anouth 60+ years and the same metrics are still being used and dominate a lot of the popular economics conversation. This is insane. There has to be a reason! There is ... and it is not a good reason. A more nuanced and widely used economic measure would invite a lot more pushback by common people ... all of us, including me .. against the policy options favored by those with wealth, privilege and power My knowledge of mathematics is not very sophisticated, but I understand numbers very well. Esepcially, I understand how 'numbers' related to measurement change over time, and have been interested all my life in what this actually means. This gets interesting when a number represents an amount of money but the value of this amount of money changes over time. The value of modern money seems to be a functionof 'I don't know what!' But things get much worse ... because the modern economy is huge, increasingly segrgated and gamed for the benefit of those with the power. Meanwhile the world goes on ... getting better for some and getting worse for others. The numerical tools for 'managing' change in a good way, an optimum way for all of society are conspicuous by their absense. This is what I have been trying to address with TVM ... TrueValueMetrics ... but my progress has been painfully slow. Hopefully, however, it will not stop completely anytime soon! This was a good Coffee Klatch with a lot more insights worthy of archiving and analysis! Peter Burgess
Has Trump's Dominance Reached its Ceiling? Robert Reich 1.15M subscribers Premiered 3 hours ago The Coffee Klatch with Robert Reich Are Trump's tariffs already backfiring? Has DOGE's credibility been permanently shot? Are Democrats finally showing some spine? Michael and I tackle this week's most important questions on today's Coffee Klatch Transcript 0:00 and it is the Saturday coffee clutch uh Heather loft house is not with us today she's taking a well-earned time off uh and in her place I'm so pleased Michael Lanes Calderone my colleague and friend Michael uh you are going to have the unenviable task today of doing Heather Loft House's task so good luck with it what by the way what are we going to talk talk about today well shoes I can certainly never fill we miss you and we're excited for you to be back very soon uh certainly a busy news week we've got Trump's speech to Congress we've got tariff chaos um Trump's changing position on Ukraine uh we have all sorts of things to talk about that are actually positive this week I'll add as well so don't tune out audience in terms of oh good good good good I wait I want to get to the positives yes yes evolving constraints on Trump and uh we'll close with a little bit of a conversation about you know how the American people 1:00 and how different Generations like yourself and myself are feeling about the state of the country let me just have that's a good idea and I like that Michael but let me just stress you reminded me between us there is a half century of time I mean you are what 28 I'm 28 yes and I am 78 I mean I'm talking over 28 Bob well thank you well you don't look at a over 78 there is a there there really I mean I it's just amazing to me that we are talking over a half century a span it's amazing that we can understand each other maybe we can't maybe that's what we're going to discover yeah I mean I I will be curious to see what comes out of that because I have a lot of questions for you about what you've lived through that I have not and I have lived through 50 years that you have not lived through Michael and it's astonishing it's astonishing and U humbling at the same time anyway so what's your first item well I mean speaking of things I have 2:01 lived through that I I perhaps wish I hadn't uh did you see Trump's speech to Congress earlier this week what did you well I don't even really want to talk much about it because I thought it was it was just classic trump it was nothing but lies as usual every time he opens his mouth the man is really incapable of saying a a sentence that is not filled with at least one or two lies uh but the other thing that struck me about it I mean it's length it went on almost that the longest one in history right in history and and again not to uh overemphasize my age but I've watched a lot of these I've been around for a lot of these whether they're called state of the unions or joint addresses to the Joint houses of of Congress uh this is the longest forever uh and uh Trump once again undisciplined and uh belligerent and self- congratulatory but the thing that struck me more than than ever before Michael is that he puts everything in the frame of 3:05 dominance his dominance and everybody else's submission I mean he you know much of the speech was about uh you know the awfulness of the democratic party and Joe Biden and uh mentioned uh you know pocah hotis you know a derisive kind of reference to Elizabeth Warren and I mean the put downs and the put downs and the put Downs I mean almost everything he said was his dominance and somebody else's submission and I think that is the central theme that is what the that's the only way that Donald Trump particularly Trump to thinks about the world and the environment and the United States and his job well can I ask then do you think that he was successful at implementing that frame I mean there was Democratic resistance right we saw representative Al Green stand up and interrupt Trump and we had Democratic Representatives holding signs and walking out I mean did that make an impact uh well I think it 4:05 it did there are some political pundit you know particularly based in Washington who say though democrats should not do that they shouldn't uh stoop quote to the Republican level but this is not Politics as Usual Michael and I keep emphasizing this uh we are not in familiar political terrain this is not Republicans versus Democrats or left versus right or conservatives versus liberals or progressives this is really fundamentally about our system of government this is about democracy versus fascism it's about self-government versus oligarchy and and it it seems to me very important that Democrats capital d uh show up and and show and and stand up uh to what is going on and if they have to show up put signs up when when Trump is addressing them uh and if Al Green uh representative algreen you know has to stand up and I think it was appropriate people are not even paying much 5:05 attention to what he said he said you did not have a mandate and do not have a mandate to wreck Medicaid uh and that's something that is on its way right now very important message uh and the fact that he was uh basically taken out of the house well at that point in time and then was censured the next day uh and then very important Michael he he representative green when he was censured uh what what he did and this is a you know there were not very many people who were ever censured in the house uh but what he did was to make a speech use the time to make a speech about what Donald Trump is doing the fact that nobody has ever censured him for calling the Democrats uh you know terrible names uh and and and then he led his colleagues in singing We Shall Overcome uh well you know it was a a 6:06 throwback obviously to the to the 60s and 70s the Civil Rights Movement but I am glad he did it I'm glad the Democrats are showing just a little bit of backbone yeah I agree I mean it was it was honestly really inspiring to me um as someone who went into that watching that speech uh not expecting very much I wasn't really sure there was no sense that there was a coordinated plan from Democrats at least that I could see so I was excited to see that but in terms of other reactions I I also saw a lot of people talking about how Trump uh seemed very dismissive of the impact that his economic policies and tariffs would have I think he said something like you know the tariffs are going to cause a little disturbance and we're okay with that I mean what what is your reaction to that well obviously he he doesn't know what's going on he doesn't understand economics tariffs uh will are causing more than a little disturbance the mere the mere 7:03 fact that the tariffs temporarily went into effect uh the night before his speech uh Monday night midnight uh well look what they did to the stock market a stock market had the biggest selloff one of the biggest sell-offs in in the last few years uh and I think that that selloff itself uh caught Trump off guard I mean he he he reversed himself I mean most of those tariffs have been with withdrawn uh and I think it shows that the one of the biggest constraints on Trump is the stock market now let me just remind you I mean you already know Michael but uh everybody out there uh the stock market is not the economy uh only the richest 1% of Americans own 50 more than half of the stock market the richest 10% of Americans own more than half uh actually 92% of the stock market so the stock market doesn't really 8:01 affect most people but for Trump and for the billionaire and millionaires around Trump the people who back Trump the stock market really is the measure of success or failure uh so that selloff had a big big effect in the white house and it's one of the things he can't really browbeat into submission either right the market is going to do what the market wants to do exactly and this this is not a matter of dominance at mission in fact the market uh has its own Animal Spirits uh as some economists used to say and so it's the stock market but it's also the bond market long-term interest rates now I don't want your eyes to anybody out there glaze over but when I say this happening already Bob it's happening long-term interest rates uh really which are beyond the control of the Federal Reserve board they have to do with uh with with the estimates and the fears and the hopes of of lenders 9:00 and borrowers you know 10 years out well those are showing that people are really worried about the economy uh and uh and and and a lot of indications we can get into this in more detail if you want to Michael but a lot of indicators are trending downward well I have another thing that I was curious about because I feel like in the background to all of this nonsense we've been seeing the House GOP or really the Congressional GOP trying to pass a budget right and and um was it last week I think it was they passed uh at least the house passed a version of a budget that had some very deep Cuts but now it seems like they're backing off of that and trying to do something called A continuing resolution right what remind us what is that is well A continuing resolution me m says we give up I mean essentially we're going to take exactly the budget we have last year which happened to be Joe Biden's budget and we're just going to continue the same spending priorities and the SP the same spending go uh it is uh it is basically a Surrender 10:03 by the Republicans and I think that's what the Republicans fear most of all right now particularly with the economy showing so many signs of strain uh is that a a a shutdown of the government would would really have terrible effects on the economy and Republicans would be blamed and they are desperately afraid of being blamed and so uh A A continuing resolution is the easiest way out for them yeah because they don't have the votes for their rather extreme program of cuts right even within their own caucus that's exactly right and that program of cuts that they put forth uh is Extreme in the sense that they wanted to cut Medicaid I mean Medicaid $880 billion doll out of Medicaid what that means you have half of the nation's children are dependent on Medicaid uh a huge number of seniors are dependent on Medicaid $880 billion out of Medicaid would have a huge effect on some of our 11:06 most vulnerable people in this country and many of them are Republican constituents not the not the children but their parents and their grandparents and so Republicans didn't want to go through with that it was a it was a threat uh they put it out there I think the most radical members of the freedom caucus wanted to put it out there in order to make room for a huge tax cut the benefits of which will disproportionately go to the wealthy and big corporations I I think that that the budget they put out there was even too much for many Republicans and that was like over $4 trillion in tax cuts for the wealthy and big corporations wasn't it I mean that's an astonishing number in fact $4.5 trillion now the eyes again glaze over at these kinds of numbers but we're talking about uh really a a enormous effects uh in terms of people's 12:02 lives uh and the lives of uh of many people that all of us know and love uh Republicans and I this is something that's important uh Republicans uh last week and the week before they had Town Halls uh in their districts many of them many of them went home they had a recess they had Town Halls uh and what did they hear in the town halls uh many people and this is even before they heard about the cuts and Medicaid many people upset about musk and his you know his chainsaw uh with regard to the federal government particularly veterans veterans administration veterans health benefits veterans who are disproportionately affected by those cuts a lot of people were apoplectic in those Town Halls a lot of the constituents of those Republicans and the Republicans came back and they said we you know they they made a lot of fuss uh and they got the attention of Mike Johnson the speaker uh 13:02 and they ultimately got the attention we hope of Donald Trump oh not just that I I saw earlier this week that the head of the national Republican campaign Council very inside baseball also eyes glazing over acronym there the nrcc told house members maybe you should lay off the town halls because they're going so poorly for all of you I think he even he even suggested that they have remote Town Halls that they don't do it in in person when you you when you're scared of your own constituents this is a sign that things are not going terribly well well I mean is this a sign for Hope in some ways I mean we can get to these early I feel like there's a lot more than usual Republicans are running scared of the market they're running scared of whether the stock market the bond market they're scared that their tariffs are causing real problems they're backing off you've got the treasury secretary going out there and saying things like Scott bessent saying cheap goods are not the essence of the American dream when talking about you know the potential impact on the like what what is happening are are they on the back foot uh they are on the back foot I mean the the the so-called uh honeymoon that 14:04 every president is granted uh in this case is very very short there are a lot of signs that even though those of us who have followed politics for years initially thought no constraints on Donald Trump Donald Trump initially thought no constraints on Donald Trump well the stock market and people uh in Republican districts many rural districts in America ruby red Republican districts uh and also uh you know Elon musk's kind of brazenness I mean his his his you know political ineptitude uh all of this uh is a constraint or these are all constraints on Donald Trump we haven't even talked about the courts well tell us about the courts then because I feel like there were a couple big news stories particularly out of the Supreme Court this week in terms of constraints right yes well it's very very interesting uh for the second time since since the inauguration the Supreme Court has bucked Donald Trump uh in a 15:04 five to4 decision with Amy kban and also uh the Chief Justice John Roberts joining the three liberals on the court to make a 54 majority saying in this case to Donald Trump you can't you just you can't cut like you are cutting uh and uh we are affirming Lower Court decisions that say in effect that these decisions belong about cutting it spending you know belong to Congress they don't belong to the executive branch and I think my question for you there is I mean you you talk about this theme of dominance and submission as it relates to Trump but is there also just not a parallel track of this is pure and blatant corruption kind of happening before our very eyes in terms of you know where the money that is being cut could be sent you know is it being redirected to Elon musk's companies is it being you know given out in the form of tax cuts like what's the big picture here the picture is corruption obviously 16:01 or maybe not so obviously Michael uh because a lot of the people who will be beneficiaries of the proposed tax cuts are the biggest backers of Donald Trump Elon Musk himself there are a lot of conflicts of interest uh I mean the Commerce department for example uh just allowed uh a lot of Commerce Department contractors uh to contract with starlink uh Elon musk's uh you know satellite Communication System uh there are there's a lot of evidence that musk is profiting off of his SpaceX uh it's not he's not even going after the defense department and defense department contracts in fact um he's profiting enormously uh not only on in terms of Tesla well Tesla shares of stock actually gone down uh but SpaceX uh and his other companies uh but he is making decisions that look an awful lot like 17:00 they are self-interested decisions U this is I don't know Michael you probably know historically uh The Teapot Dome scandal that it's my favorite Scandal actually now why is it your favorite scandle well it involves a great Ohio president if I remember correctly Mr Harding is that right yes War Warren G Harding the great people we know your your sense of history is very admirable I was not there uh during The Teapot Dome scandal but up until now The Teapot Dome scandal the financial Kickbacks and bribery that marred the Warren G Harding Administration uh really uh were unrivaled I think Nixon came pretty close but the Trump Administration is is far already uh in just the first seven weeks far beyond Teapot Dome well it's funny you mention Teapot Dome for all of those not in the no about Teapot Dome and when it happened I mean that's basically a century ago now like almost exactly 18:01 right in that 1920s era do you see that if you were looking for historical parallels is is right now this moment of blatant corruption reminding you of both you know that runup to the Great Depression in the 1920s and the Gilded Age more one than the other the guilded age of the 1890s to be clear well it's interesting an interesting question I I think there are parallels I mean certainly we are now in the second guilded age uh and the first guilded age did come to a halt on the basis of corrupt that generated a lot of wild speculation on Wall Street that caused the Wall Street crash of 1929 uh and that crash uh led to and contributed to uh the not only the progressivism of well initially Teddy Roosevelt but more importantly Teddy Roosevelt's fifth cousin Franklin D Roosevelt uh and wiped out a lot of the fortunes of that first guilded age uh so yes there are parallels uh as has been 19:00 said said uh history doesn't repeat itself but it does rhyme and the Rhymes are unfortunate in this exact moment but I I suppose I feel like there have also been plenty of uh members of the administration that been quite vocal about trying to repeal all of those gains that we achieved during the New Deal era in particular in terms of you want to talk about constraints constraints on you know I guess an un uncontrolled market right absolutely in fact it's interesting if you look at the people look at Vance for example JD Vance he is a prot of Peter teal the financial uh you know Silicon Valley of venture capitalist who sunk $15 million into Vance's 2022 Ohio campaign for Senate uh and also persuaded Trump to make Vance his vice president well what does Peter teal stand for Peter stands for no democracy he's a Libertarian who says democracy is incompatible with freedom uh well this 20:07 this view uh of of democracy being incompatible with freedom uh this anti-democracy view is very deep in the Trump Administration uh it is not just dominance and submission this is theme number two and it really is Elon Musk and it is JD Vance Elon Musk used to be colleague of of Peter teals at PayPal I mean the these these people know what they are doing and they're wrecking or trying to wreck the American you and United States government not just because they want to play footsie with Putin but also because they really don't believe in democracy and they see themselves as would be Kings would they not I mean some of them have said as much or to put it in the parliament of Franklin Roosevelt economic royalists correct economic yes economic royalists I mean Roos El's a great 21:01 1936 uh statement when he was running for re-election when he says uh when he was talking about the people on Wall Street and the and the and the rich CEOs he said they hate me and I invite their hatred um well that was a bold statement at the time and it would be nice for Democrats to to say similar things today well I mean that that brings us to another question um having just experienced the Democratic response to Trump's address this week I mean do you feel like they're on the right track are there other things that you feel that they could be doing should be doing you would wish for them to be doing well I think the Democrats are slowly on the right track the Democrats you know putting up El least slotkin to provide the response she is a moderate she's a freshman uh and um it's she did perfectly well uh but I think what the American public wants in terms of opposition to Trump whether people called them M El Democrats or 22:00 Independents or liberals or progressives or even some anti-trump Republicans what they want is somebody with fire in their belly somebody who is able and willing to talk about this in terms of well the way we've been talking about it democracy versus fascism or Neo Fascism and authoritarianism and dictatorship you know I I want to credit Bernie Sanders Bernie has been going to the Midwest he's been going to to Central red States and he's been holding rallies and he's been saying all of this in his classic Bernie pis uh it needs to be said Democrats really do need to take on the moneyed interests I've been waiting for them to do this Michael for 40 years and maybe maybe uh when the dust clears and settles on this horrendous Administration or I actually I call it a regime and it is more of it a regime than an Administration maybe the Democrats will then have the courage of 23:04 what should be their convictions amen I will be amen I will be hoping and praying on that one uh right alongside of you but I I actually wanted to ask you just to go back to the economy for a second I feel like there was there was something um that came up this week about how the top 10% of all Americans now account for over half or roughly half of all consumer spending now that stat didn't strike me at first but then I started thinking about it and I was like huh how is that even possible and I thought to myself who would have the answer to that perhaps Robert R what what's going on there well here that the I mean this is a trend like all economic data you know you take a snapshot but the snapshot only becomes significant if you see it in context of what the trend line is uh and 20 years ago the richest 10% of Americans did not account for half of consumer spending they accounted 24:00 for maybe a third of consumer spending in other words inequality of income was not nearly as great as it is today uh and the fragility of the United States economy is in part related to this fact because as the economy depends on fewer and fewer people who have the money to buy the goods and services that the economy produces uh then if those people that top 10% of get suddenly fearful uh as they became fearful this week uh then the economy is very very vulnerable to sliding off a cliff when more and more people are part of the economy that is they have money in their pockets to spend uh you know the mid the middle class we used to have in this country a very large and enlarging and and and and a middle class that get got bigger and bigger and bigger uh well that was a a steady influence in the economy as the 25:01 middle class have shrunk and the working class has shrunk and the poor have got more uh a larger proportion of the total economy in terms of the numbers not not the money but the numbers of poor and the numbers of working class the economy cannot sustain the kind of blows that it is now beginning to take and Bob I mean rich people can only buy so many things right like a Elon Musk only needs so many cyber trucks in his garage and you know Bill Gates only needs so many personal computers like that they cannot singlehandedly sustain a an Economy based on consumption right and that's one of the things that uh is not talked about nearly enough Michael in terms of inequality as inequality Soares as more and more of the uh money and and wealth uh in this country is in the hands of fewer and fewer people uh then the economy becomes far far more vulnerable 26:01 uh to shocks uh you know Lewis brandise we were talking about the turn of the century and the first guilded age uh and the parallels between right now and 100 years ago uh almost exactly a century ago the great jurist Lewis brandise said America has a choice we can have great wealth in the hands of a few or we can have a democracy but we can't have both what Brandy didn't say is we also have a choice we have great wealth in the hands of a few or we can have a an economy that works really well or we can have an economy that is vulnerable to recessions depressions and you name it uh but we can't have both yes definitely right Bob and I think that the American people um would agree with you uh I think I'm curious to see how people are going to feel as prices continue to rise uh despite the promises of the Trump campaign to do otherwise whether that be because of mish handling ongoing crises like the Avan flu crisis or raising tariffs arbitrarily on friendly Nations I mean how how are we going to solve the 27:06 housing crisis if lumber from Canada is being tariffed out the Wazoo it just doesn't seem realistic exactly and but but it's also oil from Canada we are dependent on uh and uh in fact Donald Trump in his desire to isolate the United States economy and isolate the United States uh and uh really expunge and Deport uh 10 or 11 or 15 million workers here who are here technically because they don't you know illegally because they don't they don't have uh documentation uh combine that with the tariffs what he's doing is essentially jeopardizing uh the paychecks of millions and millions and millions of Americans uh subjecting this economy uh to a downdraft and let me remind you Donald Trump was elected not because people loved him uh most people don't like him he was not elected because people want 28:02 to get rid of immigrants he was elected because of the economy he was elected because most people want prices to come down and what he is doing in all of his initiatives is sending prices up in fact the there was one very important survey this past week showing that most consumers fear now higher inflation and have more expectations of inflation than they've had in many many many years so you can imagine the buyer remorse that many Trump voters must now feel and not only that I mean even outside of economic approval his General job rating has dropped I believe uh the day of his speech was the first average net negative or the average negative rating approval rating um and that was what less than 50 days into his presidency I mean that's unprecedented right yeah yeah I mean the the honeymoon as they say is over more Americans now disapprove of trump than approve of 29:02 trump uh 60% of Independence independent voters not talking about Democrats independent voters uh disapprove of trump uh he's heading into territory that would normally be considered to be extremely dangerous particularly with regard to elections this year and especially next year next year's midterm elections well um and unless Putin gets very very active uh and I and I'm not I wish I were being totally ironic about this uh Trump is going to lose and the Republicans are lose big time in the house and the Senate and you mentioned Putin uh I guess to broaden out our our perspective here for a moment how do you think I mean first of all how do you think Putin is feeling watching all of this from afar and what how do you see the US's role in the world evolving over the next couple I mean I'd say years but it seems like weeks or days based on the the choices made by this Administration 30:01 well it's amazing how much can happen in a very short time particularly in terms of foreign policy you know a lot of foreign policy Scholars and observers think that foreign policy is the last thing to change uh when you have a new Administration but actually I've been surprised how quickly this has all changed uh you know uh Putin I mean we know that Trump loves Putin and and uh and and has tried and kind of made every attempt to create an alliance with Putin uh Trump is even telling right now that the refugees from Ukraine uh who are here legally uh have to now go back to Ukraine uh because because he wants to make lovey-dovey with Putin U but what this is also doing at the same time is causing the Europeans to come together uh they are pledging great deal of money not only for Putin but they are also at 31:01 the same time and this is something was not covered very well in the news they are striking trade deals with Latin America with Mexico uh they are creating a a kind of European U World Common Market that excludes the United States so we're going to have the United States over here alone and Europe and Latin America and who knows this is also very good for China China is very active China is opening consulates around the world even as the United States is closing them uh so Putin is delighted uh China is delighted uh American America is becoming more and more isolated uh and we because of that isolation are becoming more jeopardized economically and politically well I have to ask again as somebody who's only lived uh 28 of the 78 years that you have lived have you ever felt that the the global perspective on the 32:01 United States on the United States has shifted so quickly before because of actions taken by administrations uh not as quickly no I I'm old enough Michael to remember that when John F Kennedy was elected there was a kind of a you can almost hear the cheering around the world um there was a sense of enthusiasm uh and uh excitement uh and uh it it really did spread around the world even to Eastern Europe even to the the Soviet block uh but no this is something this is something quite quite new um and in fact let me ask you I mean granted there are 50 years between us um Michael but but how do you uh and I don't I don't expect you to have the presumption to speak for your generation obviously jenz genen Z do I have that right gen Z gen Z Zoomers as a c of Boomer I mean what do you think about what's 33:01 going on how does this all seem to you do you I mean you don't remember Richard Nixon obviously you don't remember you were not there in the Nixon Administration you were barely you were barely sentient in the George W Bush Administration uh so how does this all strike you I think it makes me it makes me sad honestly I think that I was raised to believe in you know a certain set of ideals that this country stands for and obviously it's very difficult to live up to ideals but more often than not I hope that was something that our leaders wanted to do I'm less confident of that now and I think that you see that in the cynicism among a lot of young people in general whether it be about foreign policy or I mean now just about everything it seems when you're looking at what this Administration is doing on a daily basis but also even before this Administration excuse me for interrupting Michael but even before this Administration uh JZ your generation uh was being uh really badly treated by the economy I mean you couldn't get housing housing is almost out of reach for your Generation Um you 34:06 know starting families is almost impossible for your generation I mean you look at Boomers like me you probably say to yourself well you Boomers got the advantage of being the first movers 50 years ago in terms of the economy in terms of property and home and housing and and families and we are suffering you're grandchildren in effect doesn't feel great Bob not going to lie um but you know I I at least personally am hopeful that there are enough young people well enough people of all generations who understand you know the importance of all of these programs that are on the chopping block right now in terms of securing our future and trying to do more right that's more than just retaining them right I think that I a lot of this was built up over the course of you know one or two terms in FDR's Administration or one term of LBJ like we can do big things quickly in this country if we really want to and I think that's what's been giving me hope well 35:03 you know my formative years Michael were in the Civil Rights Movement and in the anti-vietnam war movement and so my optimism about people power comes from years when actually uh we did Prevail I mean the ideals are still there we have not achieved the ideals uh but we did a pretty good job in terms of the beginnings of the civil rights movement and getting out of Vietnam uh so my my my my sense of efficacy and agency comes from those years but what about you and your generation I mean 50 years hence where do you get any sense of efficacy and agency where do you draw from that's a good question uh I think it's been difficult to say if I'm honest I I suppose there are individuals that I can point to I think I've been very inspired by the work that congressman okas Cortez AOC has done uh just being a 36:00 vocal spokesperson for working people I mean that is a total change from what I experienced even when I was becoming politically aware in high school in the early 2010s and I am hopeful that more people like her will both run for office I mean with Maxwell Frost is another good recent example he's around my age and he's been one of the more he was one of the people holding up a sign he's one of the people who gives really visible press conferences people who are digitally literate like yourself you're a Tik Tok star um and but obviously of all generations right I think that you know it's a it's a different landscape now in terms of how to reach people and finding folks who are both you know effective Warriors for the working class and able to talk on Instagram and do a regular TV hit and you know go live on Twitch and all of these things are going to be the people who lead us to success at least in terms of communication uh so Michael I I've got this all brings up a question like I'm very curious about I mean where do you get your information where do you get your news from uh I mean as a I don't 37:05 expect you to talk for the entire generation gen Z but you know I'm old enough I read the newspaper I read the New York Times I read actually a I'm old enough I read a physical actually physical newspaper people think I'm a little crazy young people don't even know what I'm reading what do you what do you do for news so I get most of my news uh from social media like many people in my generation I think it used to be more Twitter these days it's more Blue Sky um but I also like to get my news from what I'll call news aggregators uh so people that have all of the headlines for the particular day on one big page just makes it very easy for me to get a wide view of the landscape but I think that from you know what I can speak to for my peers there's a lot of folks who basically only get their news through social media whether it's by clicking on somebody's story on Instagram or uh occasionally you know maybe they'll wander on to what is now x.com 38:02 as well but I I do think the interesting thing that I don't have the answer for but I'm going to start asking around is that there's a lot more young people who are completely uninterested in being on social media for all the reasons you'd expect you know they don't like Mark Zuckerberg they don't want their personal information out there and if you're not on social media and you're not subscribed to a newspaper and you're not reading the news online and you don't watch TV I actually have no idea how you're hearing about what's happening in the world other than through your your community so how about substack substack doc that's true that actually that's a good point I think there are a lot more people who are who are directly subscribing to folks who were either previously journalists or public figures or public officials like yourself um and I'm hopeful actually that we're going to start to see more movement towards independent outlets and that's how people are getting the news I myself have come across a number of excellent uh newsletters um when covering all of this do stuff from people who previously worked for big Publications and are now independent 39:01 which is great like obviously a big change um from The algorithmically Driven social media you know uh news Focus well let final question for you um I find that in this emergency we are in and it is an emergency uh some people have opted to think of this as a sort of normalize it you know this is all just Politics as Usual some other people um and I think the second fallacy is just as dangerous uh have said there's nothing that can be done uh I am you know it's hopeless uh the apocalypse is coming uh let's just all wait to the end of the world um I I think that's a self-fulfilling prophecy that kind of that kind of hopelessness what where are you and where do you suspect and again I don't 40:00 want to put you in the position of speaking for the entire gen Z but where do you suspect a lot of your friends and acquaintances uh really are on that on that kind of frame I think that there's still a lot of uncertainty and I think that honestly even until this week when we started to see more signs of vocal resistance from the Democratic party a lot of people were feeling very lost I mean who are the leaders who is in charge of figuring out what we're going to do next either within this Administration or whatever comes after I don't know um and I think that until we start to see some more assertive leadership and visible leadership from folks in opposition I imagine people are still going to feel very uncertain and you know wanting to stick their heads in the sand though I mean given how radical the first you know 50 days of this Administration has been I suspect there are a lot more people paying attention than if they had done these things quietly that's what I want to end on actually that note because it it seems to me when I'm 41:01 feeling at my most depressed state uh over the last seven weeks what I tell myself is that the more that the the oligarchy and the and the neist and the dictatorship uh anti- democracy people the more they reveal themselves as they are revealing themselves right now uh the more the opposition has an opportunity to organ organiz and mobilize and energize U you know what we've had for years now is is that these people the oligarchs the anti-democrats small d uh have been in hiding uh but under Trump one they started to come out of hiding and now they are there the moneyed interests the big big money the billionaires the CEOs who couldn't give a about average working people they are now making themselves very clear which is good Michael I think this is good yes well I hope that others will see what you're seeing and I I think 42:04 that there are signs of that already and on that optimistic on that upbeat note uh I think we we will end Michael thank you so much uh for filling in for Heather you did a wonderful job uh I also want to thank very much Nai Bradford uh who is part of inequality media Civic action inequality media nail me you are there behind the cameras uh you do the editing and you've done a fabulous job thank you and as for the rest of you uh We've made it through almost 7 weeks of the hardest seven weeks I remember uh and uh just remember the the the honeymoon Trump's honeymoon is ending we're seeing the end the beginning of the end keep the faith bye-bye

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