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COMMENTARY THE COFFEE KLATCH ... FEBRUARY 22ND 2025 with Robert Reich and Heather Lofthouse The DOGE Backlash Begins (ft. Rohit Chopra) PLAY YOUTUBE VIDEO Original article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oapJWaDu47w Peter Burgess COMMENTARY My impression from the Coffee Klatch conversation thus week is that the 'loyal opposition' of which Reich / Lofthouse are a part really do not have a meaningful strategy for opposing what Trump and his collaborators have been doing for the past four ... or is it five ... weeks since the inauguration. Trump's management style today is much the same as it was when he was involved with real estate several decades ago. He tended to get his way by being the biggest and baddest bully on the block ... a characteristic of the New York real estate world. It tells you something about Trump that he migrated to TV entertainment and to Florida rather than staying with real estate and New York/New Jersey. For a nasty New Yorker like Trump, everywhere else is 'easy picking' and he has accumulated wealth and power in ways that others would not dream of embracing. One of Trump's strengths is his ability to tell one lie after another ... including lies that contradict each other ... and get away with it. How he gets away with this, I do not know. Both the media and the voting public overlook the nonsense that Trump spouts ... as well as the nonsense that goes for policy in many of the appointments that he is making to run the American Government. And Trump has no sense of guilt as he makes life hell for tens of thousands of people who simply want to do their jobs and live their lives. How Elon Musk has bought his way into favor with Trump is unique in American history ... and how Musk is operating as he functions with DOGE to remake the US Government more to Trump's liking. Robert Reich and Heather Lofthouse know all this horror story ... but do not seem to have a response for it ... which is understandable. The sad fact is that the law is being outpaced by a fast moving Trump, Musk, and multiple minions who are moving fast to degrade government functionality in ways that have never been seen before. There is frequent reference to a wrecking ball to shake up government ... or is the goal to actually destroy government. Musk doing a dance on stage at CPAC with a powerful chain saw sent a chilling message to government employees ... and the rest of us. Trump and Musk are not going to let anything get in their way ... including the limits that are prescribed in law. And then there is the torrent of insults against key people around the world ... which please Trump's followers in the USA, but are serving to build a huge resistance to Trump and America among all sorts of countries around the world. The exceptions are Russia, China, and a few others. But America's traditional allies are pushing back against Trump's disruptive actions and inflamatory language. It is entirely possible that the American economy will suffer a massive decline in a matter of weeks. Maybe it will be avoided, but at the moment I do not see how. I would not be at all surprised if the stock market in the USA drops by more than 50% in the next few weeks. For me it is really a sad situation. President Joe Biden was in the process of getting the American economy to a better place than it has been since the early 1960s. I have said that Biden did more to improve the American economy than any President since the combined performance of Eisenhauer, Kennedy and Johnson more than 60 years ago! Most of this progress is being disrupted by Trump, Musk et al ... and likely it will take decades to get back on track ... if ever! There is another issue that most Americans do not understand. Much of the world outside the USA does not really like America and Americans. They 'make nice' because America has wealth and Americans spend money ... but underneath they are living what was described in the book 'The Ugly American' more than 50 years ago. I do not know any Americans who have much of an understanding of this ... but they will likely learn something of this in the coming weeks. For the moment Trump supporters like the 'progress' Trump and Musk are making ... even though it is nothing but chaos! Peter Burgess
The DOGE Backlash Begins (ft. Rohit Chopra) \| The Coffee Klatch with Robert Reich Robert Reich and Heather Lofthouse 1.12M subscribers Premiered February 22, 2025 The Coffee Klatch with Robert Reich Are Trump and Musk governing as monarchs? What are the oligarchs' global ambitions? How should Dems give voice to the growing DOGE backlash? And how will attacks on the CFPB hurt consumers? Join us (and a special guest!) to answer these questions and more on this week's Coffee Klatch. 66 episodes The Coffee Klatch with Robert Reich Rohit Chopra, former director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau Transcript 0:00 and it is the Saturday coffee clutch with Heather loft house and yours truly Robert R uh Heather week number five of the Trump musk Vance regime or is it the Trump Vance musk regime I don't know but monarchy I think it's monarchy it's Monarch we we should talk about monarchy today right we have first of all a special guest so excited Rohit Chopra former director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau we're big fans he's coming in but then before that uh we've got to do it King Trump if we're talking about that the fact that he is joining Putin and the global oligarchy and also is it time for America to consider a third party whoa I know you are so provocative today well well I think questions we need to be asking how are you by the way I I haven't asked you are you doing okay are you mean do I seem like I'm not doing okay no you is it showing is it sh 1:01 you're you're doing great I mean you're doing great I just I mean I last after last week's podcast I I got several people telling me that I looked I looked like I was going to have a heart attack I looked so enraged so upset and um but I I kind of wrote back to people and said well I was a little upset but Heather calmed me down in her inimitable way but are you I love that so I thought you were fired up but I didn't think you looked unhealthily fired up I have a hard a hard time what staying healthy not being fired up no I have a hard time sort of staying calm with all this going on but I'm I'm trying I'm trying to but it's hard I mean the daily Onslaught I try to put one foot in front of the other do what I can during the day pay attention to my kid build his eukaryotic cell for his sixth grade science class I mean you kind of keep going every day with the little stuff and the big stuff okay let's get into it enough of this SCH stuff so King Trump I mean so it started the 2:05 king the kingdom and if we have to have a new segment that's the palace update I'm going to quit the clotch so this has got to stop soon so tell us how you saw it unfold as it relates to New York's congestion taxes go well I mean this is the it was really not a hugely big deal I mean he just uh decided to basically thumb his nose as he normally does uh at another part of government in this case New York state which had approved a congestion pricing scheme to reduce congestion in New York City by having a toll and he said uh uh so he he used presidential Authority which obviously is going to be questioned in the courts to say no you can't do that New York State can't do that and then he he said in a message about what he did he said long live the The King 3:05 and I mean and then the White House put put this out with a a kind of a a mock drawing or painting of Donald Trump on a kind of mock Time Magazine cover which he you know he loves Time magazine covers he loves Rel he's put out fake magazine covers of himself on Time Magazine before with himself in a crown uh as king Trump uh well I mean this created a little bit of a of a of both a both a lot of ridicule uh uh Kathy hook who was the governor of New York said you know we are not in a kingdom here we fought a revolution 20 to almost 250 years ago against a a king uh and pritzer governor pritzer of Illinois said the something very similar it opened the door to a lot of Democrats uh 4:05 being I mean giving it as much seriousness as it deserves which on the surface is no seriousness at all I mean this is just Donald Trump being Donald Trump but under the is but it yes but it builds up it's building up so exactly and this is so but I mean a monarchy we are not interested in that we got away from that on purpose we designed a constitution the founders that was not a monarchy means often that a deity right a God has appointed this person with absolute power forever unless they abdicate that's not something we do in America well it's not something we have done in America in fact the Constitution was designed with uh George III in mind who we revolted against 250 years ago uh and uh and and the first article of the 5:03 Constitution is not the executive it is Congress that is the most important or the founders thought that was the most important part of the Constitution uh the the the the Congress the people's expression the expression of the people's will U and uh and and they did everything they could to make sure that there were you know we learned this in high school checks and balances and there were you know a Judiciary Middle School even middle yes even some people learn it in high school uh some Republicans never learned it uh but there were supposed to be checks and balances and balance of power uh so that a an executive could never become a monarch a king could never have that much power that these were competitive uh branches of government uh but Donald Trump has come in uh and said and you saw these executive orders the executive orders this week there have been some new ones including one that basically says that only Trump and the attorney general who is now Pam Bondi 6:05 can be ones to interpret laws related to the executive and I you I don't know what to make of that I don't know what that means I mean the the Judiciary article three of the Constitution so article one is the Congress article two is the president article three is the Judiciary uh and you know this is the Constitution is a very small document and it makes it very clear the you have yours with you I love when you have yours in in your pocket I usually have it right this has happened people it he will bring it out in a meeting or at a coffee shop well because it's it's we all should have our constitutions with us U and but article three is very clear the Judiciary is has the power to interpret laws any laws laws that apply to the executive laws that apply to Independent Regulatory Agencies laws that uh really even even 7:01 laws uh that apply to Congress in terms of their constitutionality um I mean that's up to the courts the federal courts what has Donald Trump done well he has said number one I don't have to Fe I don't have to be bound by congress's laws I can stop and freeze Federal payments I can say that uh laws of Congress just are have have no effect whatsoever uh and by the way I don't even have to be bound by the court system I can just disregard what the courts are saying which is actually what's happening right now uh because the the this is very very important it has not got enough attention I don't think Heather um the the case that went to the federal courts about the freeze that said that it is an illegal it's an illegal impoundment of funds uh Congress has the power of the purse uh and uh and Donald Trump does 8:00 not have the power to turn the spigot onor off that case was very clear uh that Donald Trump does not have that power and it was it was basically well to put the matter simply Donald Trump has has said well the courts can be damned I don't care what the federal courts say uh and part of it was the concentration of power was the issue with the monarchy right this is why we designed the system we have what about the executive order this week too curbing the power of independent agencies that's another piece to the puzzle absolutely and that's and that's um that's something that Donald Trump would like to have he's requiring all of the independent agencies you know now we're talking about the Federal Trade Commission uh the uh FCC the FAA I mean all of these agencies that are designed by Congress to be independent of Poli itics they're supposed to be headed by 9:01 Commissioners who are experts in their field this is this goes back uh 100 years ago the the Federal Trade Commission was founded in 1914 um but he's now saying no all of these independent agencies have got to send their rules if they're passing new rules to me in the white house and we or I have to approve them uh well again this is consolidating this Con conentration of power in the hands of one man uh he's saying to the justice department in effect uh you know all of the stuff we went through with Richard Nixon in terms of giving you the justice department independence from the presidency in order to ensure the uh the that the justice department would be neutral that it would not be politicized well forget that um I am going to politicize the justice department I'm going to have a FBI Chief uh who was 10:04 just confirmed by the Senate uh cash Patel uh who has had a he has an enemies list this is just this goes right back to the Nixon Administration Nixon had an enemies list uh and uh you know Nixon and his attorney G his attorney general went to prison uh because of the violations of the Constitution violations of law we're seeing the whole thing again uh even bigger than we saw it before and so many federal firings this week I mean the IRS it was around 7,000 by the way it's tax season then we had the FAA excuse me Heather yeah 7,000 people who are not going to be uh looking at taxes and who are I mean this is all about the oligarchy it's all about the richest people in this country because the people who are audited are 11:01 not normal average workingclass Americans uh who have 50 60 75,000 of income no the people who are audited are people who have millions of dollars of income but if the IRS doesn't have the Personnel they cannot audit these very wealthy people that's the whole reason that the Biden Administration asked for additional IRS Personnel uh for every additional IRS personnel there are $3 that are coming back to the government from people who should have been paying taxes mostly very wealthy So when you say when you when you get rid of people in the IRS you're you're making government safe for the oligarchs that's what you're reling right and we've seen the FAA lost hundreds of workers too I think up to 400 and again they had to do with air traffic safety and then we've seen additional probationary workers across different departments who have 12:00 been let go but all week I've been waiting to ask you this so Trump excuse me musk it's easy to complate uh went on Twitter X this week and said and re was retweeting some people who's the Doge Bros are citing President Clinton I mean a lot of people have tried to downsize government they say you were around for the federal Workforce restructuring Act of 1994 what was that and how was that different than what's happening now well let me just say you it's very very different first of all when I went into government I was 6'4 I was downsized considerably here we go no but no it well it did show and I'm still trying to grow back up um but the real downsizing occurred almost without any firings this is the big difference I took the uh Department of Labor from uh let's see when I got to be labor secretary it was about 14,000 employees uh I got it down to about 13:02 11,000 employees uh and we rearranged work to make it more efficient that you know I'm I think that efficiency is a good thing if you uh can still accomplish what you accomplished before with fewer workers but I didn't fire anybody uh we did it all through attrition there's naturally a number of people who are going to seek better jobs every year uh the government loses some people and I thought it was very important not to fire anybody that you when you fire somebody you are creating so much Pro so much tension problem stress uh created for them and for their families and uh you know I why do that that's not necessary it wasn't necessary to get down uh from uh 16,000 to 11,000 uh but Trump is not doing that by attrition Trump and musk are just just hacking away at the federal Workforce 14:04 just sending out notices that you're terminated and that was the those were the good days when Al Gore he was the one who was really in charge and at least a vice president is indirectly elected through the Electoral College I mean this we have musk in charge of this yes Gore was in charge of making the government more efficient uh and he had a group and uh they they did but they you see another difference here Heather is that Gore did it step by step uh very very carefully the the the goal was not to reduce what the government was doing but to do it better uh and uh and and but but not take a a wrecking ball to the government uh and that's exactly the wrecking ball analogy is exactly appropriate now this is what musk is doing uh and a lot of people don't know it but they will find find out because a lot of government services are are not 15:02 going to be there I know it I know it I know it so one other thing that just happened was there is a budget moving through the house um G to go to the floor next week can you tell us what that looks like and where they're expected to find all this money they're going to be looking for well this is again has been underplayed the in the Press so far but extraordinarily important it is part of the same theme of centralized power and control uh but it's even worse because what they are looking for is about uh $2 trillion of savings savings that is Cuts in spending programs uh uh in order that they can have a huge tax cut that is mostly going to go to very wealthy people in this country uh there's no secret about that that's what happened last time with the first Trump tax cut 16:01 that went into effect in 2018 uh they want an extension of that tax cut they want to do even more uh and that is again a big big benefit to the richest people in this country who have never been richer I mean look at what has happened to wealth and income in this country over the last certainly over the last 20 years but even more Over The Last 5 Years uh in terms of billionaires and but what where are they going to get the $2 trillion of cuts of spending well this is important they the biggest places to get the cuts are social security Medicare and Medicaid and the Department of Defense but they don't want to cut the Department of Defense in fact they've added 150 billion saw that to the Department of Defense 150 billion added that's right and they've added money to border security to the uh Homeland Security so where are they going to get even more money from their Cuts well they're going to zero win they've instructed the relevant 17:06 committees in the house uh which is the committee that oversees Medicaid to come up with $ 880 billion do of cuts just in that one committee $880 billion of cuts where is it going to it's Medicaid now Medicaid Medicaid ensures half the children in this country Medicaid is a benefit for about a quarter of all of the women in this country who are of childbearing age Medicaid is a major program for the elderly uh who are poor uh Medicaid is sort of the last Insurance the last stop for Americans and if you ever wanted to understand what this Administration is about the this reverse Robin Hood taking 18:01 from the poor cutting Medicaid and giving it to the rich in terms of a big tax cut that is what is happening and Democrats ought to be screaming about this from the rooftop this is the question right so here is this budget that he's calling a big one big beautiful bill it feels like it's more borders bombing and billionaires I mean that's really that's really good border bombing and I mean that's what that's that is the budget but so where are the Dems Bob I mean I open the New York Times on my laptop and it's Trump says Trump did Trump replied Trump dictates Trump I mean where are the Dems in all of this and how do they break through they're nowhere or will they I'm looking are they are they around where you are I'm I've been looking around by I'm waiting for the alerts on my phone I mean the Democratic Leadership I I don't remember them ever being so quiet now one Theory I have is that they are being quiet because they say to themselves uh let's keep our powder dry we don't have 19:03 an election coming up until the midterms uh if we if we if we scream right now uh we are people are going to get tired of us screaming that's one Theory I'm not sure I believe that at all right keep going what's your next one another theory is that they don't want to um be sounding as if uh they they want to protect the government civil service that they are they are the Protectors of fraud waste and abuse they don't want to feed into that caricature of Democrats so they don't want to give uh Trump and musk and the Republicans that weapon to say oh the Democrats are just spending the big Big Spenders and and they and they just tax and spend you know the old tax and spend that comes from the last 20 30 40 years uh maybe that's what's going on uh another thing I hear from democratic staffers and from occasional 20:00 Democrats uh in Congress is that they just um they're they they can't get their act together they they have some of them are up for reelection in in some places that have a lot of Maga people uh they don't want to take a chance others uh are sort of saying to themselves well um you know I I I I'm just not sure of the terrain uh and and still others are saying well let's let AOC and Bernie uh and Elizabeth Warren uh speak uh for the progressives in the party we we don't have to be heard it doesn't matter which of these views is dominant uh Heather the fact is Democrats are unbelievably unbelievably quiet defining definitely quiet but so but the these theories feel like we're living in a real world I mean that feels like the status quo like well you know let's that I get it it is four weeks in to Mayhem so it is not obvious what should be being done but those theories assumed 21:05 that they were kind of in business as usual and we're not so don't we need responses that are not as usual very important Point why I mean this is not an ordinary time uh this is what Democrats usually say when they are outnumbered when Republicans have control over both houses both Chambers and with a Republican president I've heard this before from Democrats but this is not an ordinary time this is an emergency uh Democrats need to be heard I think one of the biggest problems out there in the country is that many Democrats many progressives many Independents think that there's no resistance there is no opposition that everything is being steamrolled it gives it gives Trump more Authority by the absence of any uh any any real strong uh statement against I know and he is not popular and musk is not popular we know that but also the 22:04 latest Quinn aak polls showed that the Congressional Dems are um they're at 21% in terms of people who are pro Dem I mean it's the all the numbers in all the different slots are not looking good well the Democrat Party has never been you I I think that you know there's one thing to understand here is that these parties uh every time you see the Democratic party or even the Republican party they are not really what you think they are they're not big major uh organizations cohes cohesive right they are they are funding or make they become funding agencies funding mechanisms uh so they they're not uh these uh these massive things that can be manipulated I mean the head of the Democratic National Committee how many people even know who was just elected head of the Democratic National 23:00 Committee how many people even care how many people even know how the Democratic National Committee was elected I mean these parties are just uh are are it would be fun it would be fun and interesting and important if maybe we did if something changed and we did know who those people are but you've said and you've been around longer than I have which is so fun for me to be able to say I've been around so much longer than you have I mean not that much longer but really there are examples from the past when Democrats spoke up can we remember those can we hearken back can we Channel something from them I'm going to channel I'm going to Channel right now yeah just think back I'm channeling back nowm memory it was not near-term I was not alive when Franklin D Roosevelt was President good but my parents were I mean he was President for you know from 1933 all the way to 1945 all the way through the depression and the Second World War uh and he gave voice to a new 24:03 Coalition a New Deal coalition of poor people and workingclass people and uh you know and and and and people who who wanted and needed a Democratic party that would speak to them and he he said very clearly that his opponents FDR's opponents and the opponents of working people were the economic royalists uh who hated him he said they hate me but I invite their hatred he said this in 19 when he was running for re-election in 1936 uh he said it again in 1940 he talked about you know all of these Powers these these major moneyed interests uh that were Allied against him against the New Deal against average working people he understood class and the importance of class in America and that the Democratic party had to rep present the working class hello I know hello and so 25:04 now uh I'm now I want to ask you about Putin how do you go from FDR to Putin Bob how is this the reality we're living in what has been happening in terms of trump sucking up to Putin and joining This Global oligarchy in front of our faces this is America we're talking about this is amazing Heather and this is I mean this is a a good good reason to ask why are the Republicans so quiet the Republic the leadership of Republican party you know they used to be known not only for small government and for uh and for cutting taxes and cutting spending but they were also known for their opposition to the Soviet Union and then to Putin and to Russia's aggression uh and they were the ones that uh that kept America you know really on guard against this kind of uh 26:00 dictatorship uh and and credit to them uh but where are they now I mean this week has been a turning point in terms of American foreign policy probably the one the biggest 180 degree swivel we have seen I have ever ever seen because you've got you've got you've got Trump now saying that Putin did not invade Ukraine but Ukraine brought on the war itself and and then and then and then you've got Pete Heth uh and musk uh and Advance all saying to Europe we are not going to guarantee your security uh and Ukraine shouldn't join NATO and uh and and Trump is right about all of this we're seeing in other words a United States that for most of the second world war at the post-war era has been on the side of democracy y against dictators against authoritarian autocrats suddenly 27:03 the United States now is on the side of Putin and the autocrats against the democracies and and a lot of Europeans and the Canadians and others are scratching their heads and saying what in the world has happened where the Republicans I know where is anyone the a couple electeds put out nice little press releases and then Mike Pence did say you know we can't be Uh Russian apologists and Ukraine did not start the war so he said a little something but everyone else is just scared now is it but where is all this rage going to go where is all people are mad where when is it going to Bubble Up and how well well wait a minute just let me say Mike Pence shows a lot of you know courage but Mike Pence is no longer vice president Mike Pence is nobody he's not in Congress uh I mean there is no Republican now in Congress who is standing up to Trump and saying what we 28:01 can't be on Putin's side we can't say Ukraine started this War I mean what what are you talking about where are we going what is americ foreign policy they're too they're too trepidacious they're too selfish no one can do that I think they're scared uh if you excuse the word shitless they are scared they don't want to be primaried this is why every one of them voted for Heth and for uh it telsey gabard you know who is a you know big fan of Putin as as naal National Intelligence advisor uh this is why they're not they're not against what what Trump did this week another thing he did this week which didn't get very much play play in The Press is to get rid of all of the people in the justice department and the FBI who were in charge of preventing foreign infiltration of American Media and our our social 29:00 media uh why aren't the but but can I just ask again the the Republic the Republicans have no spine I mean if the Democrats are out to lunch the Republicans are even more out to lunch they are scared they are not standing up for America at a time when America desperately needs somebody to stand up for it and in in an area that Republicans should be taking a stand I know so in my hopeful moments I think okay the midterms the midterms the midterms the midterms we can do a lot of primarying it's going to be ripe it's going to be okay it's that's G to happen I like your hopeful moments I really do can can you say that again yeah I'll say it again every day all day so but then I mean there's this idea of a third party you've brought it up before a lot of other people have brought it up what would that even look like well good question I mean we have not had very successful moves in this this country toward third parties say but but there's 30:02 a very simple reason for it and that is the minute a third party is threatened or begins to organize uh it starts taking people away from one of the two major parties that is most aligned with that third party weakening that two major one of the two major parties in a way that is suicidal uh so uh it it's very very hard you you know the kind of realignments in America that generate two part a third party uh when did when did we see we saw in the Civil War uh we saw it in the first years of U of of our Republic but we haven't seen it um over the last hundred years and I think uh the question that I keep asking myself is are we going to get to a point uh with Trump with the Silence of the Democrats with the Silence of the Republicans are we going to get to a point where there are enough people out there uh who say I really can't stand 31:05 what's going on and I can't be silent any longer and I the Democrats are not going to represent me and the Republicans are not going to represent me I want to join a third party right and I think a lot of people will be mad that you know this is even a topic because it seems scary in many ways but you're a professor I think first and foremost that's the way way I see you some people see you as a Secretary of Labor but I if I had to pick one thing and I think it's important that we think about these things that we consider options that we see where Americans are and why they're so angry and disgruntled and think about what that means and what we need to be delivering to them as electeds as politicians right well yes but it's also very important to understand that no major change in this country major movement I mean Civil Rights Movement uh the anti-vietnam war movement none of those was headed by a political party 32:05 political parties are really not leaders in the sense of fundamental change in this country uh political parties basically as I said before uh even before they became fund fundraising machines uh they were not leadership machines uh if we want leadership we've got to count on citizens we've got to count on ourselves we are the leaders we've been waiting for Heather you are leader I mean everyone a leader but so I'm I'm serious this is a democracy if people are disgruntled we've got to organize we have got to mobilize we've got to energize and people are and people are they are starting to and they are showing up at town halls and they are calling their representatives in Washington and otherwise but okay I think enough from us why don't we invite our special guests in who are so so thrilled to have Rohit Chopra former director of the Consumer Financial 33:02 Protection Bureau let's get into it thank you so much for coming director Chopra joining us in our coffee clotch I have my mug may I may I thank you too I mean I you've been through a lot uh I haven't seen you since you well I I remember years ago you asked me a question about Arisa that I could not answer and I am I I was really furious at you for doing that and I haven't had a chance until this moment to just uh tell you how Furious I was how just kind of awful that was thank you you're you're welcome and it's good to be here with you I think that question was also really about how do we take on these big Financial firms with so much power whether it's people's retirement or people's mortgages or credit cards and that was you in college right roit I mean that's how long ago it was I think so and now you can now you can answer that question that was going to be my first question you've been through you know a kind of a uh really a trial by 34:04 fire uh right uh right now in terms of what happened to you at the start of the Trump Administration you've done an extra by the way you've done an extraordinary job uh you were at the Federal Trade Commission you were at uh you were you directed the Consumer Financial production Bureau uh you deserve all our thanks for being an exemplary public St public uh servant and I just I you know I think I'm one of your biggest fans uh but let because we have such limited time what is your answer to the question you almost asked me years ago about how do you take on the powers that be well I think we actually need our government to be a Watch Dog not a lap dog I think some of the biggest companies on the planet really think that the government is there to serve 35:02 their interests rather than the interests of the rest of us and I think you see all these agencies with acronyms FTC cfpb it can sound like just a soup of agencies but what we need each and every one of them doing is checking abuses of power in our lives and that's exactly what the cfpb has tried to do and I think that is part of the reason why some of the wealthiest and deep pocketed companies in the economy want to see it debt well we're talking about power and some of the deep pocketed and biggest companies want to see it dead and guess what Trump wants to see it dead and some people would say it's dead so uh what's the moral of the story that you can't 36:01 actually take on big companies no it isn't dead because here's what we're going to see and I think it's a big open question on one hand you see um president Trump he actually campaigned on capping credit card interest rates on going after Jamie Diamond and and Brian moan for their banking practices on the other hand you see Elon Musk and others who want to defund the police that look after big Tech and Wall Street so this is a live fight and it is something that we cannot be passive about it is something we have to use our voices and our votes uh no matter where we sit Congress state legislators or just as Citizens and make sure that we do something about it we cannot live we're just surrendering to everything that 37:03 occurs and we have to actually act so I'm really proud of what we did over these past several years at the FTC who had a transformative chair in Lena KH I got to serve with her where we took on some of the biggest abuses online and in the brick-and mortar world and at the cfpb we we collected $9 billion around just in a couple years from repeat offenders uh in banking and in Tech and put that money back in people's pockets so Bob I think it's a jump ball right now and that's really what we've got to navigate through uh Heather I want to give you a chance to get in here but I I want to get back to this jump ball of metaphor yeah I mean I just think the scale at which you worked so I studied public health and public health is about the many not the few right and consumer 38:06 protection so you talked about the repeat offenders you're talking about um Wells Fargo and Bank of America and the things they have done to Consumers overcharging secretly charging taking advantage of people I mean the scale I think the Americans need to understand the scale of what the cfpb works on can you talk to that a little bit more well every single payment that you tap your phone with to pay or your card or how your payments are processed on your student loan or your mortgage how your interest is calculated on your account that's subject to a set of rules and we need to make sure that they're actually enforce a few months ago we actually sued Capital One for withhold in we allege illegally billions of dollars of interest on people's savings accounts 39:03 there's a lot of people older Americans who their primary asset is in that savings account especially if they don't own a home we also obtained around $150 million for people who use the popular payment app cash app that's just just in the past eight weeks and what you're seeing now though is a a stop work order um all of the investigators all of the examiners inspectors of the cfpb have been told stay home and do not perform any work task at all that's basically telling the police who are patrolling um to just go home and let's see what happens and I think that that's just baiting real Financial crime that will pick the pockets of people across the 40:05 country but isn't it also illegal I mean you were uh given by Congress a term of office that ends in 2026 uh the cpfp is a uh is an entity that was set up by Congress how can uh a president simply deliver a stop order and have everybody go home yeah I I I don't know and I think that's what there's already been some lawsuits to kind of sus out is all of this illegal I also Bob think there's a bigger question how is this efficient you know we hear a lot about efficiency and use of resources and by the way even during my time as director we did actually cut a lot of contracts we reassigned employees because needs change but if you're offering buyouts to people 41:02 who were already going to retire or if you're cutting all the new employees many of whom are bringing new skills that are desperately needed to police artificial intelligence and so much more how is that actually a good use of resources and so I think it's really important we need to get these employees back to work at these agencies and start Prosecuting again those who break the law because the only beneficiaries of that are the companies that break the law every single day I think we averaged over $4 million in refunds back to people why is it efficient to cut that work the return on investment was hugee for the taxpayer it's not it not only is it not efficient but it's just the opposite I mean when you take 87,000 42:05 people you lay them off from the IRS just as the IRS is approaching tax season uh when you need people to collect the taxes I mean it's absurd but let me read you uh this is a quote from one of your favorite people one of your admirers his name is Jamie Diamond uh he is the uh chair and CEO both of the largest bank in the United States one of the largest banks in the world uh and Jamie Diamond says I think this guy he was referring to you Chopra uh or whatever his name is was just an arrogant uh and then he says some awful things and he calls you a son of a uh now the fact that you got that kind of a rise out of Jamie Diamond indicates to me that you have been doing the job that you should be doing and uh but I 43:02 have to admit I am just beyond Furious that Jamie Diamond uh got his way that you're no longer there that there's a stop order uh that that uh that that Lena Khan is no longer doing what she was doing at the Federal Trade Commission that all of this of that Wall Street uh you know the cfpb was put in place after the Wall Street crisis it was you know it was part of Dodd Frank uh and Wall Street is back crowing about you know how much power it has and doing whatever it can to to Consumers and and and we're going to have another Wall Street crisis aren't we well first of all let me say um I don't take any um threats or you know exploitive Laden criticisms personally I get it it's an emotional time for a number of Wall Street Executives um they actually themselves are fearful about what is going on and 44:07 behind closed doors they're also wondering wait a second do we actually want lawlessness um or do they just want the ability for themselves to rip off people and not get caught I mean this is really what's challenging ing right now America actually benefits when we have some laws that get enforced we benefit when there are rules of the road that set a Level Playing Field so I really do worry that if we don't have any law enforcement we can see a race to the bottom we'll have instead of people competing on great C customer service or competitive rates we'll see people 45:01 competing on how they can Arbitrage or violate the law without any consequences and I just think that's really insulting to all of the businesses you know that that the cfpb regulated that are actually following the law as opposed to some of the biggest ones that violated the law repeatedly and just felt like that was the cost of doing business I just think that's fundamentally wrong now one of the rules you mentioned that you all had serious success with was capping overdraft fees right and Republicans are now going to consider overturning that where does that stand well here's what we did we looked up the history of overdraft fees and here's what we found in 1969 the Federal Reserve created a carve out from The Lending law The Lending laws are pretty straightforward you got 46:04 to come clean about what the interest rate you're charging when you're extending a loan but at the time many people were sending checks through the Postal Service sometimes mail got delayed sometimes your paycheck did not arrive on time and occasionally there was a mismatch between what your check check was for and what you had in the account but fast forward to today most of those overdraft fees are for smaller purchases you make with your debit card and some banks have turned that into a multi-billion dollar Bonanza so a lot of consumers have found that their payments were actually reordered so that they would get three overdraft fees or four instead of W they found that even if they just overdrew by 35 they would have a $35 fee so the cfpb 47:06 said let's actually look to the law to what it says so we said you know what you really should disclose the interest rate just like you do with a credit card and you got to offer the same type of information you do with other loans and if you don't want to do that we're going to make the exception into that much narrower that you can only charge really the cost that it takes you to process that or a reasonable fee and we calculated it and it was about $5 so of course a bank can still make money they can still charge an interest rate but they got to disclose it and what's interesting is one of the first actions we're seeing is an endorsement from from from um the opposition here to the rule to overturn it and the result will be billions of more dollars in fees that 48:08 are not competitively priced in many cases that consumers don't even expect or even want let me just ask a more basic question here uh if consumers are getting shafted uh and are likely to get even more shafted because this rule is not in place because the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau uh is not really able to do its job uh and we have more and more people who are angry at the system uh the kind of anger that led to the election twice of Donald Trump uh where is this heading where are we going what's the logical ending point of taking all the guard rails off American Business uh and welcoming a raise to the well like I said it's a jump ball 49:03 right now and I really think that work by the cfpb whether it was on um junk fees or medical bills or or what we've done to protect people's um payments when they're using digital payment apps I think it's basically the type of work that everyone in America agrees with and the research shows that no matter what your party affiliation this is what they want to see their government do and the only places that really controversial is with Wall Street and its lobbyists so it really depends are we going to just live in an era of noise where we just close our ears to what is going on or will we actually try and offer up what is the Alternatives and the policies we need to 50:01 pursue to lower the costs of Getting By you know a lot of people who are affected by these fees they don't have room in their monthly budgets for a few hundred in junk fees it's what puts them on a treadmill of debt and really hurts their lives and I get it for some people it just may not be a big deal for but for others it really is so I think Bob I think Heather that there is a lot of skepticism about big Tech about Wall Street and other concentrated power and the the the regulations that they impose on all of us a lot of the rules that we deal with are not actually written by government they're written by companies who set the terms and conditions and put it in fine print that we click through when we agree to something and that's 51:02 what I think people are sick and tired of and we need to make sure that that power is in check well Amen to you uh how was motivational Bob and I are constantly looking to feel good these days and I feel like you have delivered that I feel empowered that is true I do too and I want Jamie Diamond to watch this uh and I would love him to join us maybe you can join us too uh and answer the question how in the world is JP Morgan Chase or any big Bank going to make money over the next five to 10 or 15 or 20 years if American public doesn't trust the system appreciate you coming on roit Good Luck thank you so much to both of you see you again yes well I found that so empowering I'm so pleased he was willing to join us and to think what these federal workers are going through Bob yeah I I think Rohit Chopra 52:07 has been one of my heroes uh in terms of leading uh not just the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau but also leading a movement that is a consumer movement and a in many many respects a labor movement uh and uh I'm so grateful for him to join us today I Heather I am grateful to you I say this every week but I and it's it's absolutely sincere uh your work as director of inequality media inequality media Civic action uh is just fabulous and uh as my colleague here in our uh our our weekly coffee clotch uh it is wonderful to be with you uh and Heather I also want to thank our colleague Michael Lanas Calderon uh behind the scenes Michael you're doing a terrific job we want you back on the show a lot of people out there say they want you back so we're going to have you 53:04 back right come back Michael uh but let me just say something finally uh to all of you out there um because I do believe that the the powers that right now seem to be ascendant uh not just Trump and musk and Vance uh but the Republicans who are uh so uh willing to uh put aside their integrity uh whatever Integrity they had uh and tow the line with regard to this regime uh and all of the others out there uh who whose Integrity is being compromised uh members of the media members of of of of business uh leaders who who are not saying anything who are not speaking up I I know how hard this 54:00 is for the rest of you uh because I feel the same way but what they want and I'm talking again about the forces of authoritarianism Neo fascism uh Putin what they want more than anything else is for us to give up to feel like there's nobody on our side that each of us is alone and each of us because we're loone is powerless that is not the case we are a majority we don't want a United States that sides with Putin against Ukraine we don't want a United States that robs Medicaid and children poor children needy people of the insurance they need in order to give that big tax cut to the wealthy we don't want a a country in which power and wealth are centralized in the hands of a very very few people 55:06 uh an oligarchy that's what Trump wants that's what musk wants that's what Vance wants but we don't we are in the majority and don't forget that for a moment we'll see you next week [Music]

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