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ECONOMICS PROFESSOR RICHARD WOLFF Richard Wolff: The Final Case Against Donald J. Trump with Robinson Erhardt PLAY YOUTUBE VIDEO Original article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8iOadxZHvs Peter Burgess COMMENTARY This conversation was recorded in October 2024, about two weeks before the American election of 2024. It has been archived in TVM about two weeks after the Trump inauguration. I do not see Trump's program in his first week of his second term as anything but setting up a huge disaster for the United States. There are some very capable people in the United States, but few of them seem to understand how dangerous the Trump administration is going to be and that a lot of good people are needed to push back against the Trump game plan. This is urgent ... but most Americans seem to have drunk the 'KoolAid'. This is, of course, a reference to the Jim Jones cult massacre in Jonestown, Guyana in 1978. Peter Burgess
Richard Wolff: The Final Case Against Donald J. Trump Robinson Erhardt 228K subscribers ... 872,535 views ... 23K likes Oct 20, 2024 Full Episodes Patreon: https://bit.ly/3v8OhY7 Robinson’s Fashion Empire: http://bit.ly/3XBKqO2 Richard Wolff is Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of Massachusetts Amherst and a visiting professor at The New School, where he works on economics in the Marxist tradition. This is Richard’s fifth appearance on Robinson’s Podcast. In episode #127, he and Robinson discussed some of the most profound criticisms of capitalism; in #154, they focused on the myths surrounding Marxism and Marx himself; in #190 they covered the Israel-Palestine conflict from a Marxist perspective; and in #222 they assess the end of the American Empire. In this episode, Richard and Robinson talk about the 2024 election. More particularly, they discuss the irrelevance of Donald Trump, both candidates’ economic policies, the Biden administration’s track record, Ukraine and Russia, Israel and Palestine, China, the promise of Kamala Harris, immigration, and the future of the United States. Richard’s latest book is Understanding Capitalism (Democracy at Work, 2024). Understanding Capitalism (Book): https://www.democracyatwork.info/unde... Class Theory and History (Book): https://a.co/d/ht4trZN Understanding the 2024 Elections (Article): https://asiatimes.com/2024/08/capital... Richard’s Website: https://www.rdwolff.com Economic Update: https://www.democracyatwork.info/econ... OUTLINE 00:00 Introduction 07:51 The Irrelevance of Donald Trump 15:41 Does the Government Even Matter? 20:49 On Richard’s Astounding Rhetorical Abilities 29:40 What Makes Donald Trump Great? 37:38 Was Trump Good for the Economy? 50:00 Why Won’t Trump Just Go Away? 52:29 Is Ukraine Doomed to Lose the Russian War? 1:00:21 Who Will be Left When America Crumbles? 1:13:14 What on Earth Should We Make of Kamala Harris 1:23:24 Donald Trump Versus Marxism 1:29:30 The Republican and Democratic War on Immigrants 1:37:38 Trump Vs Harris on Economics \| Who Wins? 1:43:44 Trump Vs Harris on Russia, Ukraine, Israel, & Palestine 1:50:37 Trump, Harris, and the War on Data 1:57:43 Will Trump or Harris Win 2024? Robinson’s Website: http://robinsonerhardt.com Robinson Erhardt researches symbolic logic and the foundations of mathematics at Stanford University. Join him in conversations with philosophers, scientists, historians, economists, and everyone in-between. Transcript Introduction 0:00 Trump is a form of escapism it's a form of avoiding evading what the real issues are so is Biden so are kamla Harris these are punching Judy shows there are a place where you take children who might be frightened by all kinds of real issues in their lives and give them a time off give them a something to focus on these interesting characters who are beating each other with sticks it's a way of calming a population that's getting increasingly nervous right below the surface is the nervousness because doesn't go away the punch in Judy show show changes nothing once it's over the most important things about these elections are precisely the desperate way in which this Society does not want to face its existential problems 1:01 [Music] some political theorists and economists and historians based on my other conversations I can tell are purely interested in untangling history and while I know that you're obviously very interested in the history am I right that you're also quite interested in using your work work to better understand predict and prepare for the future well Marx is famous for something called The Thesis on fybu who was a philosopher that Marx grew up with and was critical of and probably the most famous of his thesis on fbba was short couple of 2:01 pages is the one that runs like this philosophers have interpreted the world the point is to change it and that would be I would say what how I come at all of this to untangle your question a little bit beyond not understand in what the word predict really means I certainly make no claim whatsoever to have that capacity and I find the claims of others in that direction to be humorous whether they intend it or not I can't predict the future nor can you nor can anybody else um I'm interested in understanding the history because everything that's 3:01 happening now is a product of that which happened before it's a complicated product these things are very multiple in their determinations but when you try to unravel why things happen you do understand them better it gives you a more satisfying story about what what is happening in the world you inhabit and if you're of a certain mind I am that's very important very satisfying to understand what's happening I understand there are other folks who don't want to consciously or unconsciously who are frightened about what they may learn who are worried about where it 4:01 might point but for me as for many understanding the world you live in is a more satisfying way of living in it than not and so I spend a lot of time a lot of effort understanding how we got to where we are as a way to understand what's unfolding again not not to have some prediction about about the future there are always always large parts of the explanation of anything that we can't manage it's too complicated human beings can't do that never have and don't do it now either it's what a whole list of thinkers meant by the term overdetermination in other words things that happen 5:01 anything are shaped by so many other things going on that the so many is handled by the mathematical symbol infinity and you're not going to grasp Infinity that's the whole point of the symbol of infinity it's the other side of what you can do the best example I know of is a painter that I love a Belgian painter named Renee magrit one of my favorites yeah and if you'll notice almost every painting he did is mysterious he wanted people to understand that everything in the world includes and is wrapped in mystery whether it's a bowler hat or a cane or an upside down umbrella or light and dark reversed in a picture the world is full of the these Mysteries and you 6:00 don't overcome them the arrogance of The Human Experience to imagine we're going to control nature or we're going to dominate or we're going to understand it is a grabbing after religion God made everything so he understands or she or it and the human being once they eject God want that for themselves it's not available God was invented because it's the other side of the boundary of what we can do can do everything it's hegel's notion everything is with its opposite because it's bounded from that which it is not that's how you define what something is so it's it's other what it is not is part of its own definition and if you understand that then you know that we always create these opposites it's part of how we grapple with the irreducible mystery that's what mcre does he wants us to see 7:01 it that was an excellent way to start this and I want to begin with the untangling of history and what you said about everything being a product of what came before right and the reason that's important in this conversation about the upcoming election is that I have the sense that beyond the the promises that we hear in debates or in campaigning or the agendas we see on websites we might get a better sense of what to expect from the results of the upcoming election by looking at the past eight years so much more recent history and in particular I have in mind the Trump presidency and the Biden presidency and I'd like to start with The Irrelevance of Donald Trump the Trump presidency and what I'd like to ask first before we get into particulars is what you think are the key highlights or takeaways or what you 8:05 remember most about Trump's presidency what stands out to you um I think the thing that struck me most was the [Music] irrelevance of it interesting yeah interesting that you say irrelevance just because at the time it's not that this was a buzzword but the sense that you would get from looking at half the media was that it was catastrophic so irrelevance is a surprising word yeah I think the notion that it's catastrophic is a product of a desire not to face the level of problems that this Society has to be 9:03 cutesy Trump is a form of escapism it's a form of avoiding evading what the real issues are so is Biden so are kamla Harris this is these [Music] are punching Judy shows there are a place where you take children who might be frightened by all kinds of real issues in their lives and give them a time off give them a something to focus on these interesting characters who are beating each other with sticks in in a safe place that will be followed by an ice cream cone this this is very important very useful it's a way of calming a population that's getting increasingly nervous right below the surface is the nervousness because doesn't go away the Punch and Judy show show changes nothing once it's 10:05 over it distracts and that's it's significant and it has consequences but it's also over and pretty quick and so was Trump and so was Biden and so will be whoever wins again so for me the most important things about these elections are precisely the desperate way in which this Society does not want to face its existential problems that it is it's hegelian only in the sense that it was a set of myths that enabled the rise of the United States as a society and then the society forgets an ancient lesson be careful of the myths you ride up 11:04 on because at a certain point they will take you down and if you don't get that and if you don't think about it and if you don't worry about it still going to happen your best hope is to understand it that we're back to square one you try to understand what is the history suggesting to us might be at the grout look if you go now and many people have noticed this the level of vitrio of Rage of bitterness in our internal politics is a bit remarkable Republicans and Democrats look at each other now call each other names call each other threats to democracy I mean whatever they can think of to demonize the other there are large parts of this country where if you are a 12:05 Democrat you are considered evil with that word and did all the other way around so what's going on well this used to be the discourse which Americans don't yet want to understand this used to be the discourse of the United States versus others the others were savages the history of this is stunning Europeans come to this continent literally ethnically cleanse the indigenist population out of existence kill them on a scale that has hardly been equal by the millions and refer to them as Savages that's an achievement who's the 13:02 Savage if you go the first time I encountered this was in a little town in Massachusetts called Deerfield or old Deerfield it's a reconstruction of what that little town looked like in colonial America and so the houses are redone to look like they did then very nice job it's a tourist thing you go there and you look at that and in front of each house is a plaque that explains something about this house it was inhabited by the yipsy doodle family or whatever it was and and then description on the 18th of October of 1702 the Savages attacked I remember the first time I saw this the Savages you come in here destroy everything these people have and 14:02 they are the Savages that's that's an interesting move it is you know I hadn't thought of that before think about it now fast forward the Cold War Stalin is a Savage the stalinists are the what the hell is going on what are you doing Putin is now Stalin Rewritten new spelling but that's wrong that that that's childish those people are trying to solve their problems they do it in some ways that we find interesting some ways we find horrific which is kind of normally how it goes what's this demonization what what it was allowable for the indigenous people it was allowable for our Cold War enemies but they were all 15:00 outside those chickens have now come inside and we now do that to each other very predictable but the American people have no way of coping they don't understand what to do every day I read we're we're not being very nice to one another yeah hello welcome to the club what did you think it would always be going outside it would never turn in there's no precedent his is full of the opposite lesson therefore should have been ready for that should have wondered about it should be able to see it now no no no denial denial on both Does the Government Even Matter? sides you hear we want to get back after this election to being what we had a temporary period after World War II where this country could afford a government that didn't matter a 16:00 little Republican year and a few Democrat who cares half the population doesn't vote there's no point for them what's the difference answer not much most of the trends as an economist that I watch go across Republican and Democratic administrations to make a difference not much a little sure but in the larger scope of things not much so what I'm leading up to is I say Irrelevant in that sense yeah we we we go back and forth both of them are hoping that they can continue especially the Democrats Trump is a is a little bit different so he wants to do his crazy business KLA Harris comes out of a different tradition and she wants to get back to normaly you know you could even see it 17:05 the other night in the vice president one of them is trying hard not to be the chameleon that he is Mr Vance and the other one just wants to be Mr Nice Minnesota you can see I want see I'm nice Minnesota Vance is trying to look like he's also a nice guy because that's part of Republicans too they want to they want to keep it going but they can't because it's over and that thought that it's over that thought is so frightening that it can't be discussed it can't be debated it cannot be allowed neither candidate says a word about it the whole rest of the world is talking about it and in this country nothing that's a sign as loud a sign as 18:05 imaginable the silence here in the classic term speaks volumes the rest of the world is watching the decline of the American Empire we're living it and cannot speak it and this campaign is a study in you know there's that M moment uh you know the movie uh Young Frankenstein the Mel Brooks movie I know it I don't think I've seen it it's a little before my time okay well you should see it one of the great comedic movies uh this country ever made and there's a scene in it where uh Marty Feldman a British actor is playing a man who has what is called a hunchback here a deformed back and he's a servant he helps Young 19:01 Frankenstein he's helping Young Frankenstein descend from a coach and as he helps him the Young Frankenstein inadvertently puts his hand on the back on the guy's back thereby touching his protrusion and he's very apologetic oh I'm sorry I'm so terribly sorry of touching your hump and Felman look looks up at him and the movie captures it what hump what hump that's how he handles His Hump what hump when I say declining Empire that's how America handled it what declining who are you talking about it's obvious who I'm talking the whole world is discussing this the whole I mean I go around I I do a lot of work in other parts of the world that's what they're asked me to talk about but here in the United States no talk about it I mean it's beginning now I'm exaggerating it's beginning but up 20:06 until now and in the official discourse of this Society nothing nothing from kamla Harris nothing from Donald Trump it's a non idea goes nowhere not brought up no reporter asks them about it it's a more powerful censorship as all cult have understood then any dictate that says Thou shalt not speak then you're already in trouble what you want is that it's not a thinkable thought no one has to tell you to stop because you won't start well I have a couple of comments before I yeah respond with a question On Richard’s Astounding Rhetorical Abilities I'm not sure off the top of my head how many conversations we've had on the show maybe it's four or five maybe this is five or six but each time I get to know know you a bit better one thing though 21:01 that has stuck out at me since the beginning I'm just always amazed that these fully formed essays seem to come right out of you when I ask these questions I can explain that to you if you want oh I would love to hear that okay if you if you circulate well let me make it personal having circul ated in those parts of American culture in which the pretense of the authoritative figure is we know what's what we are the authorities we articulate the governing ideas of this Epic 22:00 then you if you're a student around such people which I was you know I'm I'm basically a workingclass kid lifted up by chance and Circumstance to go to Harvard and Yale and Stanford and all those places that I went to school in those environments you don't have a teacher who says here's an idea or here's an argument no you have something else you have a teacher who has been instructed by life to present whatever ideas he has as the authoritative dium they are it when I was at Harvard and my teachers included Henry Kissinger okay he doesn't speak about American foreign policy about the way a professor of that might at ex college or here I advise 23:04 presidents why is that important because a student who is in opposition has a very high order of demand you don't just have another idea you've got to try at age 18 19 20 to package it the way this turkey does yeah he's got all of the bells and whistles you know what I imagine this is like a young a young Catholic seminarian in the Middle Ages having come out of the village cuz somehow he does well in school and now he's going to go into the priesthood and become a you know monor and a cardinal and eventually the pope right as he rises es through he adjusts his 24:02 tone when he's a student he's surrounded by these people with their tones and when he's a Manor and when he's a cardinal by the time he's a pope he knows how to do Pope he's been studying it all his life and he's had as he's been successful it's a more rarified atmosphere with its own lingo and its own style so people like us have had early on to defend what we had to say and to try to do it against an unequal Foe and that meant we had to work really hard to become as articulate as we could to learn to play the same games drop the same names refer to the same authors in the same clever manipulation as if we knew more about them than we actually all of that you 25:00 know half of it's real half of it's as phony as a $4 Bill we had to learn all that and being oppositional which I was already as a college kid I fought with Kissinger over the Cuban Revolution Castro I thought Castro was wonderful he hated him okay so we had a problem I was the only one in class class who had that view and I was the only one in class who said it so he focused his upset on me he didn't know that that was possible that somebody up there at Harvard would think that F Castro is a hero so he wasn't prepared which I enjoyed and I understood I enjoy this and the students couldn't get the other students couldn't get over the tennis match you know he hit the ball I hit the ball and he was losing he getting angry 26:00 I didn't get angry he got angry so if if the student can make the teacher angry half the other students go with the student I learned that lesson too so I'm the product of all of that and the articulation and the essay I had to I had to try to some otherwise might beliefs which were just emerging and just developing would have been squashed kissing just set out to squash them or others kissing just just stands in the all the other Professor was more or less the same there were excuse me very few serious dissenters from the consensus at harv they preached the diversity of ideas there was no diversity which is why it was so comfortable to preach it no risk of it so I had to learn I had to learn and I think others in that situation learn 27:02 they have to it it's survival if you can't come up with a well articulated argument you're going to look like what and that and you have to look in the mirror you want to like what you see there and what you're getting in the classroom is the most polished form usually of that kind of thing plus they let go the professor because they have the authority they're grading means not the other way around so they can afford to [Music] be as nasty as they feel there's no risk to them me if I'm not careful I may win the argument and get a c minus I'm very aware already that you don't want to see M so now I have to I have to I have to I have to maneuver look it's the dialectic the system trains its own graved diggers it always has doesn't mean to 28:06 it's Hegel again you know you're creating your opposite you're creating your opponent I don't want this to devolve into a conversation where I'm just complimenting all of your various abilities please don't don't don't but but one one last thing I will say is obviously you also have a tremendous rhetorical ability and and as a budding uh speaker public interlocutor I just notice as we're speaking that you're not fidgeting you have your very I I don't want to say that they're practice in a sense that they're they're not artificial but these very distinctive engaging mannerisms and what I'm focusing on is just sitting still and not shifting in my seat every uh every 30 seconds so maybe in 30 years I'll be closer to you but the the last other comment I wanted to make before we get back to the topic at hand is after four or five possibly this is the sixth 29:05 conversation we've had I also can really tell how deeply Marxist you are in your way of thinking where Marx's analysis is concerned with these huge movements like slavery feudalism industrial capitalism so it shouldn't really come as that much of a surprise to me that you think of trump as irrelevant or a flash in the pan because compared to these huge Mo movements maybe he isn't that significant but okay I would however like to speak about some concrete particulars about the Trump presidency and maybe this isn't something that What Makes Donald Trump Great? you're capable of doing which is interesting in its own right but I'm wondering if there is one highlight in a positive way about his presidency or of his presidency that you think is something that we might expect from him him in the future and also if there's something profoundly negative that 30:04 sticks out in your mind that makes you worried about the future based on what happened between eight and four years ago okay um one thing I think Trump does I'm not sure whether the terms positive and negative work so well but one thing that he does that I welcome is he opens the space within American political leadership for something other than what in European countries is called Center left center right European countries most of them have multiple parties they don't have two parties the way we do they have six or nine or three but they don't have two they haven't constricted their political space so that you're voting for Tweedle 31:04 Dum or Tweedle D Americans make a bigger deal than Europeans about we stand for freedom of choice except in politics where we don't need it two is more than enough we want 15 kinds of toothpaste in the supermarket on that shelf we want green toothpaste and toothpaste little blue speckles in it and toothpaste that'll make your nose shine as well as your teeth we want all our choice and know of our choice but when it comes to politics two is all we need is two two that are colorless copies of each other most of the time at least in my lifetime post World War II Trump blows that up Trump says no when Trump mocks George the Bush family Jeb Bush from Florida 32:01 who was the heir of parent when Trump Begins the Bush family Dynasty like the Kennedy all of this jeo energy yeah jeo oh yeah little quips even the quips are interesting because you're not supposed to do that when he when he mocks uh McCain because he was captured he he I prefer prisoners of War the I I prefer war heroes that aren't captured you I mean grotesquery you know sort of but it opens a space to not the usual oatmeal this is something else and so Trump makes something else possible in that way he functions Like Bernie Sanders and that's why they had the peculiar link between these two I I remember being struck by the number of people I encountered just me as an individual who said to me I'm either 33:06 going to vote for Trump or for Sanders those are the ones I like that I got that a lot here in New York City from Working Class People who were wondering which way to go um my son-in-law comes from Mississippi a Baptist Minister family in Mississippi they also were discussing around the table Trump and Bernie they weren't going to vote for in between they didn't want the same old same old which is how they talked about it so Trump Like Bernie gets a lot of points from me for opening a space that's positive in some sense uh for me and he continues to do that you know I wouldn't like it the way he does it that's crazy 34:00 stuff and he's not a serious person you know I've been a professor all my life and you learn if you're a professor all your life pretty quick to see which students are are in there trying to learn and which are are there because their parents told them this is what you do now and a few years will go get you a job and go here and get decent grades but it's okay C you start drinking Thursday and go through Sunday as long as you get decent grade the job will be there when you're done I I've learned to recognize those people you know particularly when I T to Yale I lii type places that's very Stark you get the children of the rich who are there because that's a right of passage they go there their Grandma went there and so they go there and those who are there because they want to learn something 35:00 uh Trump is the one who's there because their parents put him there he has no interest in he do crack a book The whole idea of doing that strikes him as stupid he wants to get drunk make some money do things with young ladies and all the rest of it that that's why he's there and that's who he is and you know that's all he's ever been the best description of his is the one given by Howard Stern they they understand each other no longer they're enemies now but they were close friends um so for me that's a positive breaking out of the mold when Bernie says I'm running for president and I'm a socialist and when they say you're a socialist yeah I'm a socialist he doesn't walk away as so many did I can't tell you the number of my professors who 36:02 when you look them up historically were socialists when they were younger but you'd never know it they have cleansed themselves as if that was a disease from which they had to escape um so it's refreshing and it's different in American politics and Bernie was dismissed as hopelessly irrelevant because he was a socialist he proved everybody wrong and Trump in his way did this same he's a clown no one took him seriously he's a Playboy in New York who's given a lot of money by his real estate Papa all of which is true and therefore he's irrelevant you know it's all true but he not irrelevant he's going to upend the establishment of New York all that so for me that's that's as close as this Society gets to recognizing something is changing they don't want to go there and they want to squash it they the Democrats are squashing Bernie and the Republicans 37:04 would like to squash Trump not working but they want to and they'll keep trying they've excluded Bernie look at him he's he's marginalized really effectively they haven't been able to do that to Trump yet but they're trying all the suits put him in jail I mean they're trying to sweep him out of the story of of the Republican party so that drama is positive only because it opens a certain Was Trump Good for the Economy? space the second thing I find positive about Trump is what other people wouldn't find positive the only signif I'm an economist so I focus on that the only significant econom omic things Mr Trump tried as president were 38:06 two one was one of the biggest tax cuts in American history the one that passed in December of 2017 uh into law and the one that expires next year that's why they're fighting a little bit now over whether those will be extended or will end therefore bringing those taxes back into effect taxes were cut big time um that was a a remarkable thing to do in 217 we had just completed 30 years of American History roughly from the 1980 to 2010 roughly in those the Fe in those 30 years we had the most dramatic redistribution of wealth in the United 39:04 States in our history from the bottom and the middle to the top it was a boom the likes of which you had never seen for the rich it was the 30 years during which factories were closed here and opened in China in which American capitalists looking for profits went to China cuz the profits there were better than they were here which they still are wages are lower and the market is the biggest growing Market in the world so corporations went and if you were Rich enough to own shares the richest 10% own 80% of the shares in this country if you were a shareholder you cashed in on this profit Boom the rich got richer and everybody else didn't at no time in our history did we less need a tax cut for the rich he gave them 40:04 a tax cut for the rich the sheer arrogance the sheer grotesquery of this lost they had enough fluff and that this wasn't understood I mean some did I don't want to overdo it but in general it was not understood that was his number one economic act and in many ways it was successful for what he won it got him the support of a large portion of the business class which supports him now and without which he would be he would be gone that's what holds him that and the people who love guns and the white supremacist but that's the money that supports and the others are votes the second of the two things he did did was to wage economic war on 41:02 China I had a feeling that you would bring this up one was what he called the trade war and one was what he called a tariff war and those are not so different so will collapse them economic war against China a little bit of a military war moving the fleet there resuscitating the Dead Issue of Taiwan yet again uh but it was mostly economics um he hit him with big tariffs he um he arrested the daughter of the executive of the Huawei Corporation when she was in Canada [Music] um and the point and purpose of it in his language was to make China TR to behave reasonably namely other than it had been Translating that into honest 42:06 English it was to slow down their explosive economic growth because it was challenging the United States in a way that the United States has not been challenged in a century we have not had an economic competitor in a century the last one that was series was the British their empire we know is gone hint their empire is gone the challengers Japan and Germany are wiped out in World Wars 1 and two 1945 the US is it it was already it before but now it's it without a challenger the Soviet Union was never an economic Challenger even to today the United States GDP I I keep 43:01 telling people things because they're so simple that hopefully they penetrate the GDP gross domestic product rough number of the output of goods and services in one calendar year the GDP of the United States is now 25 more or less trillion dollars the GDP of Russia is $2 trillion huge disparity I mean it's ridiculous the no you you have to really work hard to make a country that's got two relative to your 25 appear to be a great threat like those Savages were back in the 18th century comes back doesn't it doesn't it always anyway the tax cut for the wealthy was successful the tax cut for building his financial economic base as a politician was successful and it gave a nice boost to the economy because it stimulated 44:05 everybody who has got money to invest because they were floating in it you also have to remember that when the government Cuts taxes like that it suddenly is plunged into an absurdity which is how in the world are you going to pay for all the things that people want you to do if you're cutting taxes how are you going to help college kids how you going to support Social Security how you going to make the road function how you going to do all the things you're expected to do if you've cut the taxes the answer is you borrow the money well there is no other answer you could cut all the services then you'd have a revolution here right here in a good old USA they all know that we don't discuss that but they all know it so they borrow the money here comes the good part who do they borrow 45:00 from well the mass of the American people have no money to lend to the government so they go to the rich who have the money you know why they have the money to lend the money to the government because the government didn't tax them you understand this game this is a hustle in which rich people make themselves richer they're the ones who lend to the government the money that they didn't have to pay in taxes because for a rich person there's a no-brainer which would you rather be tax or a creditor of the government oh I'd rather be a creditor which they are where else does the government get the money when it borrows from other countries United States is the biggest de country in the world nobody else is close I didn't realize that yes we are and we have been for a long time I would have guessed Greece or something like no not at all it's right here here we are in dead up to our eyeballs but here's the best part and your audience will enjoy this 46:05 if they have a sense of humor the second biggest creditor of the United States the first one Japan okay I wouldn't have guessed that second People's Republic of China who's winning and who's losing they're the big second biggest creditor they have lent 800 billion as of now $800 billion dollar to the United States but here's what I want the American people to think about if China owns 800 billion of US debt which they do then of course the United States as the borrower has to pay interest for the money it borrows which means that you and I and everybody else gets to pay taxes every year that go to Washington where they don't fund our roads or schools or 47:05 hospitals it's money that the United States government collects and sends to Beijing to pay interest on the debt and the Chinese use to develop the Red Army you understand all of this has to happen beneath the surface because if Americans understood what what I just said they would realize that beneath all the the reality is is the opposite the Chinese for their part understand that by lending that money to the government of the United States they are [Music] funding the americ American support for 48:02 Ukraine even as the Chinese are on the Russian side in that same War you understand that's the reality of the of the economic of capitalism now back to this Trump thing the war against China was intended to slow its development it failed it was designed to get a different politics in China it failed in fact everything it was designed to do it failed didn't do anything China is still growing faster than the United States pretty much by the same Marin margin two to three times faster not close so there was a big program and it was a bust a 100% bust the tragedy of Biden and of the Democrats is that they don't have the 49:04 power or the commitment to do anything even about these two things they they basically continued the anti-china economic Warfare it varied it a bit maybe a little less intense but pretty much the same and they have not undone that tax they promised to do it but they haven't and kamla Harris suggests she will but she wobbles and my guess is you won't do much there'll be excuse me a compromise which is what they call it because there isn't yet although it may materialize at any moment the pressure that'll blow all this up and that pressure is the gap between all the disc course over here and the and the bubbling reality below this is that's why Mr Trump didn't go away Why Won’t Trump Just Go Away? 50:08 after his loss that's why he didn't go away after his 47 you know why didn't he go away because the underlying pressure that produced at him is still there nothing has been done you know the mass of people that are angry that their jobs are gone or that their job security is gone or that the prospects for their kids are gone they're all gone they're gone now and they were gone two years ago and they were gone four years ago so Mr Trump is in the wonderful position of saying make believe it hasn't gotten any better he's right it hasn't gotten any better it just I mean this in that your this endless game in which the Democrats point to something that's better and the Republicans point to something that isn't okay I I get it but I don't think very many folks are fooled most people don't pay any attention and the the truth of it is that the underlying reality hasn't changed 51:14 significantly the the level of inequality in the society hasn't gotten markedly different they haven't undone the last 30 years of redistribution upward nothing H kamla Harris proposes will do that removing taxes on tips giving $25,000 to people who can for their first homes or they can have a down payment nice things and the kind of things Democrats he's not going to change the basic structure of this Society who runs it who has the bulk of the wealth who's in a position of power nobody's challenging that and that's part of this as per the 52:00 beginning of our conversation that's part of everything's okay everything's okay we can continue as we did we can do more of what we always did marginal adjustment meanwhile the level of debt of the country unprecedented the level of debt of Corporations unprecedented level of debt of households about to go back to the unprecedented a level it was before the pandemic interrupted Is Ukraine Doomed to Lose the Russian War? it threats in the world the war in Ukraine is being lost everyone in the world knows that except the United States here in the United States they can actually sit down it's like a pantomim Mr zalinski can come address Congress and present a victory plan he hasn't had a victory he's had one 53:00 loss after another one major city whole sections of the country are now occupied by the he lost but the game must the Congress Mr zalinski meets with the president to discuss his victory plan huh the whole rest of the world I mean it looking huh what a few European leaders because they're in the bag here they have to go along but other than that even the new British prime minister you know Britain that's the place where when the America says jump they ask how high even they are now going Jesus Take It Easy Olaf Schultz in Germany trying to survive which he won't but trying try to figure out some way the Italians have already said we're we're out we're not we're not doing this you know 54:00 bye-bye and the Israeli thing is it's another this is another dead end and at some point at some point this will reverberate some point this will come meanwhile and I mean this seriously meanwhile the big issue can't be discussed so no one w recognizes it the big issue over the last century the United States and [Music] Britain championed a particular way of organizing an economy private capitalism for lack of a better term the Soviet Union for 70 years championed an alternative State capitalism where the state plays the role of 55:00 owner operator of the Enterprise the state owns it legally and the state puts its people officials in the position they call the Council of ministers but is in the position of boards of directors that are State officials they're put there because the state owns the business there is no stock market you don't buy and sell shares in the Soviet Union because it's not how they do it so but it's capitalism because it's a small group of employers with an army of employees just like it's slavery when you have a master and a slave no one gives a damn in they and analyze slavery whether that's a private Corporation or a government that owns a slaves it's slavery either way and feudalism the same you could have a private Lord with surfs and a governmental Lord with surfs it's feudalism but here in the United States when we have capitalism we make a mountain out of the difference between 56:01 the private and the state the state we give another name to we didn't give another name in slavery we didn't give another name in feudalism but in capitalism we give another it's socialism Marx never wrote a book about the state Marx wasn't interested in the state Marx never advocated State this is silly has nothing to do with with Marx I mean read it you'll see it in 10 minutes Marx is interested in the relationship of production Marx's argument is a small group of people making all the decisions that's the problem that's what we've got to change we've got to this will come as a shock democratize the Enterprise the Enterprise should be a collective a community a community like in communism that and we all get together and we have a conversation and a debate and we decide as a 57:03 community what to produce how to produce where to produce and what to do with the product in modern society it's called the worker Co-op it already exists workers have figured this out that's Marx's argument right it's not about State capitalism but back to my story the United States and Britain is private capitalism the Soviet Union is State capitalism and what can we say about that that was the 20th century struggle US versus USSR Cold War The Clash of these two which would be properly called private capitalism State capitalism private capitalism was more successful in spreading around the world no question Soviet state capital was more successful in a rate of growth in 1917 when Russia makes its revolution it's the most backward 58:04 country in Europe poor beyond words 4% of the people literate 70 years later it's the Challenger of the United States amazing what they achieved through two world wars fought on their soil and the Civil War and the revolution now we come to China in the 21st century it's a hybrid it's not private it's not state it carefully combines the two if you look at the Chinese economy it's roughly half State Enterprises half private private capitalist Enterprises owned and operated by private Chinese citizens and or foreigners because they allow the foreigners to come in that's the most rapid economic growth the world has ever seen in 30 years they are now the 59:05 Challenger what I just told you is very simple and very clear and you never heard it before what is that about you're an interested intelligent person who pays attention you never heard it why did you not hear it I'm putting together what everybody who looks at this can find out in a half a day is worth of reading that's it this is not rocket science and yet it must be squelched it cannot cannot be th it's a remarkable to me I'm a product of American Education I never went to school anywhere else from kindergarten through the university um trained here if I can figure it out given the way I've been educated so can everybody else here what 1:00:03 is the problem the problem is ideological you must the system is on the decline and it is girting its loins and building its structures to survive it's really what it's doing but it a doing it very well and the and the cost Who Will be Left When America Crumbles? the cost will become intolerable because the people at the top this is very typical of of Empires when they go down as every Empire has of course ours will be the great exception yeah of course as every Empire goes down the people at the top the richest the most powerful use those positions that they occupy to offload the costs of decline onto everybody else that's why the minimum wage in this 1:01:03 country is $725 an hour last raised in the year 2009 we've had 15 years since then prices have gone up every year sometimes as much as six seven 8 % in a year but what did we do for the people at the bottom nothing which means what they can afford to buy with their $725 an hour shrinks what are we doing we're whacking the poorest of the poor I don't want to worry anybody about their Christian or judeo-christian ethical commitments but there weren't any not really and who presides over no increase in the minimum wage Republicans and Democrats 1:02:03 alike they are going to do that and tell each other whatever the stories are that you need to tell to continue to behave in this way the United States maintains between 7 and 800 military bases around the world nobody else does but we maintain them as part of the Department of Defense okay we're done there it is a couple of comments first of all as you know but some of our listeners might not we just had a 3-hour plus conversation on the decline of the American Empire that I would encourage our listeners to check out if they're interested in hearing more about the big picture of where the United States sits in not only in history but in global politics and its trajectory the war cold the new Cold War maybe we could call it with China 1:03:05 but the second thing that really stuck out with me stuck out at me is that the two positives that you listed well I guess there were three positives but the latter two positives that you listed regarding Trump's presidency were economic because that is one thing that I tend to hear even across the political Spectrum he did make some good economic moves but now especially because I want to make sure that we talk about Harris and the future as opposed to the past I first want to pose that same question that I initially did to you about Trump but about the Biden presidency I'm assuming that you would also view it as Irrelevant in a certain way and as a flash in the pan relative to these larger movements that we've been discussing but is there a different word that you would apply to Encompass his 1:04:00 presidency and is there a strength and a negative to his presidency before we move on to Trump and Harris's agendas going forward sure first of all I'm glad you mentioned that that you've had this session on the decline of the Empire and I want to commend you you are doing it and it is being picked up I'm talking when I talk about silence I'm talking about what I think goes by the name mainstream Media or mainstream discourse it's really still quite rare it but it exists no question and in in podcasts and in the kinds of programs like yours and indeed like I do programs about this all the time on the radio and on YouTube and all the rest so there are people picking it up yes and my hope is there will be more of them and that eventually it'll Force its way onto a broader 1:05:03 agenda um number one number two Mr Biden's presidency was for me the reassertion of the same old same old in other words it was the reaction against Trump four years of trump provoked a reaction and go back to what we had because Mr Biden is like a poster child he's been in the Senate from day one been there for you know forever I remember as a college student his name came up because I paid attention to things like that um number one number two he's the senator from No Place excuse me Delaware and I mean no disrespect to Delaware I'm not sure I've ever met 1:06:04 anyone from Delaware exactly Delaware is a place where corporations go and they have gone there for a century because it has the friendliest laws of any of the 50 states two corporations it did that on purpose to bring them there because not too much else goes on in Delaware I'm being a little mean but I want you to understand he's a senator from a corporate State he's the sen it's a little bit like being Mr Schumer that's a senator from another corporate State namely Wall Street so and you are governed by all of that you pretend otherwise that's who you are and that's who he was and he was never very important and he was always and also ran and it it made perfect sense for Obama who is a different in another way because he's brown to take 1:07:01 somebody who is so traditional and make him vice president which is how he becomes president it's just you know it's it's odd this way okay so then what does he achieve well a certain return to normaly but it solves none of the problems and therefore doesn't undo the the support for trump it maintains it if anything strengthens it despite every legal maneuver imaginable against Trump still if the race is close which most people say it now is that's Mr Biden's fault and he didn't do that is remarkable yes it is remarkable for many reasons so that's the first thing the second thing that I find important Mr Biden had developed over 1:08:04 those many many years of being a leading politician in this system certain fixed loyalties that seem to be Beyond question sort of interesting one is his loyalty to what is called the neocon view of the world the great the United States is the beacon of freedom and the Soviet Union is China is second and and we fight this war forever he seems committed to that that to put people like blinkin and Sullivan and the others in those dominant positions in the International Management advisory function um means you you are a neocon that's 1:09:01 interesting the second eay fix he had was that the support of Israel has to be fundamental and yes they helped him in his political career for sure but it's more than that there's some kind of loyalty there that is beyond question you can see it each time the Israelis do something he's right there cheering them on he may walk that comment back a day or two later but you can see the instinctual before they can put a muzzle on the guy out it comes interesting and the third contradictory a bit is his feeling that he needs to show and be friendly to organized 1:10:03 labor so if I had to pick the most positive social contribution he made it was by putting Progressive people onto the board of the National Labor Relations Board which has changed the way the unionization drive has emerged in the United States States during his presidency I'm not going to give him credit he didn't make that happen but he gave it a greater Space by reducing the blockage worked by the nlrb under Trump and Bush and those people even Obama he he gave them and you know he he just said uh there's a strike began to days ago on the East Coast ports here the Atlantic Ocean the doc workers stopped working striking and he his first 1:11:04 statement was the employer should pay them more woo that's that instinct that's good for you Netanyahu whoa don't do that that's you don't do that you're the president of another country you you want to cease fire you want the two sides what are you do doing and they walk him back and he then but you know everybody sees well in a parallel way he does that for labor and it has made it easier for the upsurge in labor militancy to happen in this country and one of the things you can be sure Mr Trump will do if he wins is climp that down again as fast as as you know can say Jack Rabbit I mean that that's what that will happen because that has been they will hope that that 1:12:03 stops a labor militant it won't by the way but it'll slow it it'll hurt it it'll produce obstacles for it um but beyond that the rest of what he's [Music] done how much this may s silly but I I just have to admit that I'm not the most politically astute individual or up to dat on the news so having these conversations is genuinely very important to me just to become a more informed voter because I don't have time to delve into these issues otherwise another comment that I want to make though plugging our conversations is that in January you and I had a very long conversation I think it's titled something like a Marxist perspective on Israel and Palestine and I think that 1:13:03 that's another good place for listeners to go if they want to hear more about that but now I think we've got a lot of really good historical context out of What on Earth Should We Make of Kamala Harris the way to help us look at the future a bit better we spent a lot of time on Trump we have spoken a bit about Biden but we haven't really spoken about KLA Harris at all so maybe the first thing I ought to ask is do you have a word for her the way that you do for Trump or Biden do you have General expectations from her I spoke to Judith Butler recently that's an episode that will be coming out around this time we spoke about Israel and Palestine we spoke about the election something that I found interesting about their view on the election on Harris is that they 1:14:00 aren't particularly excited about Harris but they really just view Harris as a way to block Trump that's the biggest problem so I'm just curious about your genuine thoughts on the issue um go back to the beginning of our conversation I don't have strong thoughts about KLA Harris because I really don't know very very much about her she doesn't have much of a record she was an attorney general in California she um she was a Senator and I I understand all that but didn't do very much didn't initiate very much um but I don't care because I I don't see these people as significant Bernie in my judgment was was significant because he was a little bit of a break Trump I I tried to suggest was a break and ironically Biden 1:15:03 was a return but notice I'm making them significant in terms of the larger picture not not so much what they did or didn't do as a group so my first reaction is what are the larger phenomena that are at play here that may make her be noteworthy in some way that we might imagine discussing six months from now well first and foremost is the fact that she's female and secondarily that she's a brown female this is very in our culture this is extremely important that it is possible for a female let alone a brown female to be in this position that this 1:16:00 is possible an enormous part of our population can't digest this will vote against her because of it or not vote at all because of it it's particularly hard for men who have all kinds of problems but particularly these days problems with black and or brown and with women you know as a professor we are watching in our classrooms an unbelievable shift when I began teaching economics it would not be uncommon for me to have 25 men and four or five women in a classroom that would not be unusual now it's the reverse women out number men in colleges and universities in America for the first time and they get it's more the gap between them is getting larger with each passing semester I mean the culture is Shifting 1:17:03 the values are shifting the attitudes are shifting and she's a reflection of that and she will carry that it's not accidental that her number one issue is abortion I mean yes yes that's possible and if she wins it will be in my judg because she gets a wildly disproportionate vote from women and female black and brown people it's not so clear with the male black and brown that cuts the other way because they're male interesting yeah the I'm not up to date on the polling numbers the polls show the polls show that so I think she is another step in the breakdown of those hierarchies but it means she's also another step in provoking the white supremacy and and the the horror of the part of the 1:18:05 population that was brought up to believe that the order of the universe has them above them and they don't look like it if you have an Obama look Trump is in office in part because of the reaction against Obama That's seems clear to me she's going to provoke that too um and she's going to have to manage that the way Obama struggled to manage that that's so that's one thing more mysterious because she's unknown more mysterious is what will be the impact so very different from anybody who's come before of having a president both of whose parents are not Americans they come from other cultures 1:19:01 other socities other her father is a West Indian and her mother is an East Indian I mean she she is uh a very different thing and if you believe in history as we've been talking all this time she's the product of what went before she's the product among other things of her mother and her father and that's not going to determine things but it's going to play a role in how the evolving situation of the United States reaches her ears plays in her mind shapes how she being a powerful per if she wins a powerful person um is going to make her decisions choose her advisors and and all the rest of that [Music] um let give you an 1:20:06 example I know and have read the economic analysis published by her father super some of the best stuff there is in economics all right I don't know what the relationship is but between father and daughter I mean who know I mean that's always a mystery anyway I have a daughter and I'm fully aware of the mystery um on the other hand wow Bernie doesn't have that Trump will have to joke kamla Harris's father is a professional Economist trained in the west in the United States and so forth heterodox in his views very well accomplished really clear on the whole third world economic development but other related issues 1:21:04 highly theoretically sophisticated I mean and Donald Trump's father was a real estate Hustler that's different you end up with different children who focus in different ways on the world if you have that difference I don't know what Joe Biden's father was but I'm sure it was not what Donald Harris or col Harris's father who's alive who was and is doing um he's also critical of of of capitalism that's surprising yeah Donald Harris very much otherwise I wouldn't know him so well yeah um but you have two people in the current cabinet like that Peter budd's father was a Marxist 1:22:03 also Marxist English professor and so you have buddh and you have Harris and they have influences that normally you do not get coming in at the American government I'm even surprised that the right-wing crazies haven't made more of a an issue of all of this it's just childish and silly but it's the kind of stuff that our mainstream media I mean if you if you can spend two weeks talking about the problems of ingesting pets you can certainly do that well now that I and our listeners probably have a a good sense of your lay of the land of the election it would be a good time and helpful for me to talk about some specific pieces of trump and Harris's agendas this one maybe I'm not going to learn that much about how you 1:23:04 feel about it because it seems pretty obvious to me but I if if this isn't already clear even though this is this show is called Robinson's podcast I like to remain as neutral as possible and not try to force my views in really any domains except possibly the philosophy of math sometimes but especially not in politics \ Donald Trump Versus Marxism that being said when I looked at Trump's agenda and Harris's agenda I was appalled by a number of things one thing in particular that I found absolutely abhorent was in Trump's online platform he says something to the effect in numerous places in indifferent wording that he would like to prevent marxists from entering the country he would like to deport marxists and Communists and socialists because they're not American they can find another country yeah and I'm wondering 1:24:05 how this resonates with you because for me I already I already said it it's abhorent it's terrible it seems entirely anti-American well you know what's American and anti-American is like you know what's fashionable hems High hems low color this way color that way um that's very old in the American culture it goes back to savages the the Marxist the Socialist the Communist is not another person who who looks at the world differently from whom you might actually learn something as they might learn from you no no no no no no no no no no those indigenous people that the colonists found in Western Massachusetts were not people 1:25:01 who had lived there for centuries developing their cultures and their patterns and their religion there were Savages that's a he's just noting these are my Savages and just like we kill Savages in the 18th century I'm going to take care of them now and and that resonates in large parts of this population because that kind of thinking is intrinsic here and it by the way happens in other countries too I'm not suggesting that the United States is the only place that it happens but there's much more of a challenge to it you know let me be very very very simple virtually every French or Italian family that I know has in it socialists and Communists because those political movements and parties are large and have been there for many 1:26:06 decades so when a family reunion of the lupan family or the Pierre Aron family happen and they all get together for a picnic they all know Steer clear of Uncle Louie and Aunt Matilda because one of them is a fascist and the other one's a communist and then and when they get in the same room they argue or fight or throw things at each other whatever the form of their they often end up hugging each other but that's another matter that whole thing is understood in those societies yes when they break down all of that can become they kill each other absolutely they did musolini killed Communists large numbers of them Adolf Hitler ditto right so it can go very 1:27:00 very bad um but here in the United States it's casual it's when Mr Trump puts that down there what he's doing is simply saying to all the people with whom that resonates I'm your guy vote for it doesn't mean he's going to do it it doesn't mean even if he he could do it it doesn't even mean if he tries and gets a law passed it will be actually implemented all of those are steps that are up in the air I'm not saying don't worry about it it is important that he says such things that's who he is he's collecting what did Mrs Clinton call it basket of deplorables he's collecting what to other people look like a basket of deplorables and that's why he turn by the way stung by those criticisms that they turn around and say 1:28:05 to the Democrats you know why what you're doing you're bringing in immigrants who are criminals who eat pets in order that they vote for you okay that's as horrific in in their way a claim as what is Is MeMe that for them this is and for America for large parts of America that's what they expect of politics that's why I'm I'm unusual I see on the black Savages I go oh my God what a what weird people to call call the folks they kill Savages you know they didn't kill you you killed them I mean there were a few of you that got in the wrong side of the wrong battle I remember when my my wife who studies these things brought to my attention the testimonies of young 1:29:02 Europeans captured by the Indians and brought up as children in the Indian tribes and then were offered to go back and didn't want to the difficulty that because then they for a moment they had to conun their own children didn't find these people Savages what are you doing so for me look I find maybe this is a way to The Republican and Democratic War on Immigrants answer and if it's not just stop me I find the attack on immigrants by both the Republicans and the Democrats by Trump and Vance on the one hand and the accommodationist approach of kamla Harris on the other horrific for me every morality I know Rebels against this what are you 1:30:02 doing let me put my hat on again as an economist this is one of the United States one of the richest countries on Earth with 330 million people in its economy according to the Department of Homeland Security we have 12 un 12 million undoc documented immigrants Mr Vance who doesn't care about these data says 20 let's give it to him he's wrong but all right 20 20 million of the poorest people on Earth among them cannot cause or explain the difficulties of a country that has 330 million people in it it can't that's too small that's under 10% of your people and what are they mostly doing I'm not going to talk about the children because they're 1:31:05 children they're working the horrible jobs they're picking fruit they're in the car wash you know where the immigrants are in the main so they're doing crappy work they're paying taxes what's the issue here there is no issue this is a country built up on wave after wave of immigrants our birth rate is very low now without those immigrants our population is shrinking and then they not going to help our capitalism at all so you solve the problem as is happening in many parts of the world where birth rates are coming down with immigration number one number two if you look at the causes of the immigration the role of the United States States is very large where is immigration coming from Central America Venezuela United States is an embargo 1:32:05 against Venezuela we're trying to destroy that country and we have been for 20 years under Chavez and now under Maduro the climate change the Monroe Doctrine which says Latin America's ours well if it's ours and we're the big Power which we are than anything that happens there such as migrations of people are partly the result of our policies which easy to show so the Immigrant is partly a result of what we've done partly coming here to work uh crime rates in case you're wondering FBI records crime rate of immigrants lower than that of native population I mean they made it up it is a good issue it works on the border states that they need to get the southern states are trying to hold on to Texas New Mexico Arizona and so on so it 1:33:06 works they did some polling did some focus groups hating the other the they're Savages what's Mr Trump famous for coming down that golden escalator at the beginning of his race for 19 in 19 in 2016 they're rapists they're criminals they're eating our pets they're in come on this is a wonderful issue now what's the reaction to that the reaction to that should have been you're a disgusting P everybody in this country who's white is here because they were descendants of immigrants that's supposedly what made the country great these are people who want a chance 1:34:02 in life the sort that your grandmother did when she came or your Grandpa we're proud to be the country to which they come we're proud to welcome them we're going to give them housing and jobs and you know what to avoid any misunderstanding we're going to give housing and jobs to our own unemployed people too so there's no invidious competition that's what we're going to do that's how we're going to behave wow that would have made kamla Harris look really she didn't dare so powerful is the mentality that she has to go to the Border and talk tough we're going to turn them away we're going to we're going to 1:35:01 wow that's not even good politics and I may be wrong and she may be right maybe it is what has to happen politically we'll never know because nobody except a few of us and by us I mean the left are willing to say hey these are our brothers and sisters these are workingclass people overwhelmingly who want a job and safety for their families wow and they're going to be grateful and they're going to work hard because they don't want to run a foul of the law they're not lawful because they have some moral they're lawful because if you're an immigrant and you break the law you're out of here my parents were immigrants I for full transparency my parents both of them were immigrants they never ate any pet in my 1:36:03 presence they didn't commit any crime that I'm aware of I'm glad they kept it hidden from you yeah they kept it hidden from me at the very least and you know if I'm if I'm the product of two immigrants and if I'm here talking to you maybe it's a good idea to let immigrants come and have their shot at doing it except for how effectively you're undermining our nation with this discussion but I I'm very glad that immigration came up naturally just because it's a dominant issue in this election but something else that you said stuck out at me and it was that JD Vance doesn't like data I alluded earlier to aspects of both agendas that I found quite distressing one one of them is that these agendas are clearly written for the lowest common denominator in a way that makes them unhel unhelpful in some ways there is no 1:37:06 data on the websites about policies projections and so it's going to make this question I imagine a bit difficult to answer what I have in mind is you said earlier that the biggest economic problem with this country right right now is debt and obviously economics and economic platforms it is a major problem make it the biggest okay sure even still economics is clearly an economic policy is a big part of a presidential platform Trump Vs Harris on Economics \| Who Wins? and I'd like to take advantage of your expertise as an economist how do you weigh the two economic platforms that are in this election I think both of them are fundamentally irrelevant it's the same thing I said at the beginning that they're not dealing with the economic problems that we have 1:38:02 the point I wanted to make with immigration is the problem with immigration is how do you integrate the problems solving that we have to do if you have a low birth rate if you want to have more of a working population if the population you have not only has a low birth rate but the other side of that a growing section of people too old to work so that we're going to rely on those who are young who work to produce enough of a surplus to give a decent pension and retirement to the older ones who are becoming relatively more numerous then immigration is your solution which is why by the way it's happening in part it is a solution now if it if it offends if it upsets your domestic your native popul okay how you going to deal with that well one of the reasons is a fear of competition for jobs there a fear of competition for housing and all the rest of it correct and there should be that 1:39:03 fear we haven't planned for that we haven't undertaken the housing construction or the job creation and that's what the government could and should do the the domestic in the PE the native people will love it we're going to give you a job and a home and we're also going to give it to the Immigrant but the Immigrant is not getting it at your expense that's half the argument the Republicans make folk building people's anti-immigration by saying they're taking your job they're taking your home they're eating your pets I mean did the imagery is all the same they are savages and we're going to protect you build a wall protect you from the it's the mentality the mentality of building a stockade around the Colonial Village in the northeast or wherever it might be that it's that again playing on that 1:40:00 thematic in American uh culture so for me I'm disappointed because nothing creative is offered to this other than building a wall that's not a creative solution that's a defensive solution that doesn't question the premises and it's the same thing everywhere else taking away taxes from tips if I understand correctly that was proposed first by Trump and then agreed to picked up also by Harris so they both are going to remove to this is saying to a poor beggar on the street oh you have no money here I'm giving you three nickels okay he'll take them three nickels 15 cents maybe you can get something for 50 but it's not going to change that beggar is going be there tomorrow because 15 cents is not relevant to the scope of the problem that he faces the problems we face as a nation are not handled by giving 1:41:04 firsttime homeowners $225,000 it's not doesn't do it you've got to face not a word say that we've had three or four decades now of redistributing wealth and income upward the solution to that is to reverse and move the redistribution the other way here's the irony in the decades before the collapse of the 1930s we had the same redistribution it blew up and then in the 1930s there was the reverse the redistribution down so what happened in the 1930s just remember our history you taxed corporations in the rich in a way you hadn't before and what did you do with the money you created the social security system which give to everybody who reaches age 65 a pension at a time of the depression when the government had no money it did 1:42:05 of course it taxed corporations and the rich we passed the first minimum wage in the United States in the 1930s we passed unemployment compensation for the first time in American history in the 1930s we never had a social security system before until the 1930s and the big one I haven't even mentioned we hired the federal government hired 15 million people who were unemployed and now had a job and could make their mortgage okay that was a radical redistribution of wealth and income down to offset the explosion when it went too far up you know where we are now too far up you know what comes next dot dot dot dot the all of that is magically not a concern they don't say a word about it there's not a word in it kamla Harris who's the Democrat way you would expect it doesn't 1:43:04 talk about redistribution of wealth she's afraid her advisers tell her as they have told every other Democratic candidate don't you dare say that that's like touching a third rail you know you'll be politically dead if you do that can't say that you know you get that advice over and over again you end up sounding like nothing her strategy seems to be to Advocate very little so she can't be shot at for that now might that hide a commitment to do something really dramatic maybe I don't think so it's not in her history didn't know didn't do that anywhere else didn't do that in California you know so the last question Trump Vs Harris on Russia, Ukraine, Israel, & Palestine that I wanted to ask about platforms is how you view the two candidates platforms as far as global politics are concerned going forward this new cold 1:44:04 war with China Russia Israel and Palestine I see no significant break which is what has to happen so I am very disappointed I recognize that Mr Trump uh uh looks like he'd plug the pull the plug on the Ukraine war end it basically by stopping the flow of or constricting the flow of money and weapons to this regime in um Ukraine so and that war is horrific and the soon of that war is over the happier I will be um other than that I think KLA Harris seems to be going out of her way to say that she's a supporter of Mr Biden she does 1:45:02 have the awkward situation that she is the vice president and has not in any way that I'm aware of opposed what he's done and seems to go out of her way to suggest that she is loyal to all of that so at this point that's what I see and I'm I'm very worried frankly because there isn't in my judgment there is no hope for the ukrainians under um Mr Zen Mr zalinski other than drawing the United States and Europe into that war if it is the way it has been for two and a half years now a war between Ukraine and Russia Ukraine supported by the West Russia more or less on its own Russia 1:46:05 wins Ukraine loses that is what's been going on with a very short exception for the whole war and it's now more than ever only if the United States comes in in a massive way could could that be no guarantee but that could then there's a chance and fundamentally I believe the same is true for Israel Israel is a small country it is surrounded by a much larger population of Arab people and behind them an even larger population of Islamic people all of whom see Israel as an a front one way or another um all of them are on the side of the Palestinians in that struggle now the struggle is widened which I understand why that happened it now includes Yemen 1:47:05 Lebanon and possibly Iran as well um and the Israelis Only Hope in such a struggle is if they bring the United States in and Western Europe same same problem as Mr zalinski um and fun Fally I don't think the American people give a damn about either Iraq either Ukraine or Israel enough to run the risks that all of that takes now the enemy is not a little poor country like Afghanistan was or a little poor country like Iraq it's Russia and China with nuclear weapons uh you who in America wants to risk what that means for Ukraine or even for Israel so I don't think it looks real good and 1:48:05 I know it has to be worked out and keeping it at the highest levels of secret government is very unhealthy because it means that if the outcome is a mess and and and bad which it clearly could be then you're going to have a mass of people very angry at whoever in the secret government made whatever the decisions were be much better to have the whole country involved and we all have to live with what we really as a consensus decided to do so for me it's not that you you have Democratic decision making out of a moral commitment to democracy it would be nice if you had that I have it I would like others to have it but just for preservation be wiser to make this a general conversation not just a knee-jerk reaction to a to a cold war that's over and that applies in its way to 1:49:03 Ukraine but very similarly to Israel to me these look like desperate Wars of people who upon whom the walls were closing and they had to do something and Russia felt endangered by NATO moving I still don't understand this between you and me why Why move NATO what was the point what was the Russia collapsed your big enemy Russia isn't your big enemy if you know the history you'll know that for a little while even Mr Putin was discussing joining NATO what really yes but he wasn't the only one there they were thinking of doing that because the rationale was gone so why are you doing this it's the Savage under if you don't have the Soviet Union where's your 1:50:05 Savage ah terrorists when you don't have them anymore China or now Russia you make Putin into another Stalin Putin half of whose support is the Russian Orthodox Church I mean his ch this but if you're desperate that if you can make immigrants the problem then you can make Putin the devil these are similar moves they are made to solve a problem and if I can take a Trump, Harris, and the War on Data moment the reason for it the reason you're outraged because data don't count or that data aren't there and I am and you are and you said you were let me give you a different explanation of why you are for me this is the all about 1:51:01 capitalism of which I'm a Critic so won't surprise you but I'm in particularly critical of capitalism because of the industry called advertising which has been flourishing in capitalism in a way it never did in any other system ever before what do I mean by advertising an entire industry employing millions of people whose job I would describe is as follows you take a product that a client wishes to sell a good or a service and your job is to publicize everything positive about it that you can think of and add a few imaginary positives that you can think of and attach them to the 1:52:04 object and at the same time go out of your way to hide and deny every negative about it and this becomes the norm for discourse in a society you are teaching in every child who watches television whether he or she could say it be conscious of it cognize it or not is learning I am being told only good things about orange soda pops no one ever tells me in school they say you should approach things by looking at the pros and the cons weighing the good parts and the bad parts you're supposed to come to a balanced understanding a but the Relentless power of advertising which gets you much more than the classroom teacher or the nice minister or the loving parent they're teaching you 1:53:06 that's all you know what it's really about hammering at you the posit there are no negative there are no negative than all to my product just these positives guess what our politicians do they tell you only about their positives and they hide their negatives there are no negatives my opponent invents the negatives I'm just positive it's so childish that people see through it thinking they are not infected by it but you are just like your four-year-old watching television is being taught that discourse is what the ancient Greeks called rhetoric speech designed to get an outcome not speech designed to understand in the ancient Greeks understood the 1:54:01 difference Americans don't get it and Europeans don't get it either wherever advertising is powerful you watch a literal atrophy it becomes humorous when you go to a dating site young people who used or of any age who use dating sites have to adjust because they know that the person whose picture they're picking has only put on there what will sell them as a dating partner M you're going to have to find out either over the coffee table or in bed or somewhere else all the things that weren't and that's going to be traumatic and you kind of know it but you don't know how to get out of it it's way the world is no it isn't it's the way you have life if capitalism can generate the 1:55:04 advertising that literally suffuses the environment with this way of discourse very very dangerous but don't worry nobody discusses it so what I'm wondering we've talked a lot about how you view this this as an economist as a Marxist as somebody who is very aware of global politics I'm wondering if you view it any differently just as Richard wolf as an American as a child of immigrants as a father as a university Professor if any of this is different from what we've been talking about I don't know how to answer that's good my views on everything are are shaped by everything else I believe in overdetermination I don't know if that that's a concept we ought to discuss one day which we which I take self-consciously from Freud and from 1:56:04 Hegel and from alus and the people who have been crucial in my formation but I are the my first action is I argue a lot with both my wife and my daughter they see the world differently from me they're not a father they're not an economics professor my wife's a psych olist my daughter is also um so they for example have tutored me and I've learned a lot about psychology Psychiatry and so forth um you know at a certain point I don't know if the name means much to you but there was a French Freudian named Jac laon okay that that was an important influence on me my father comes more more through the German philosophic tradition and so my father was part of something called The Frankfurt School and in Germany for a while there were a collection of 1:57:04 thinkers the most famous is a man named Thomas um adorno uh but that group the names May mean something to some people the only one who became fam there were two who became famous here adorner wasn't one of them another one was Max horkheimer who was very close to my father as a friend but the ones that came in the United States and got known were Herbert maruza um and another one whose Name Escapes me right now well to finish this off I'd just like to ask quite briefly Will Trump or Harris Win 2024? Point Blank we T we spoke last time about how you're not a soothsayer or a prognosticator you can't tell the future but what do you think will be the outcome of this election well I hate to do this to you but I need to insist on not being able to predict having been born and grown up in 1:58:03 the United States all my life even though my first languages are French and German because of my French father and my German mother my father was French and German comes from a place called um is it interesting I'm blocking it out uh on the border of France in the alsas region Mets the city of Mets where my father was born but I've I've been born and raised and worked all my life here in the United States I understood a good bit I thought about capitalism how it would evolve these last 10 years maybe even 15 years now has been a surprise to me I did not if I had believed in forecasting I wouldn't anymore because I would have been so far off that I would 1:59:00 have questioned the whole project I mean I didn't believe in it I don't know how anyone manages that uh but the last 15 years have been a a development that has transformed my life transformed a good bit of my thinking um given me opportunities to apply the philosophic and economic training I had as a young person in ways that I could not and did not foresee so it would be even Wilder for me to suggest some scenario coming down the pike I've been so out of it I think you have to learn how to adjust and cope you know the name of this studio is is in English becoming is a very key concept for Hegel being is becoming and what that means everything is changing a 2:00:02 maximum of Marx's Marx was once interviewed by a New York newspaper and his answer was you know what is it that you study he says change everything changes well RI Rick Rick I'm glad that I get to call you Rick now please um this has been absolutely terrific as always I'm so grateful for your time I've learned a lot but we need to get you to your next appointment so telion we'll meet again to talk about whatever happens after this but again thank you so much R my pleasure pleasure [Music] 1:58:13 and German comes from a place called um is it interesting I'm blocking it 1:58:19 out uh on the border of France in the alsas region Mets the city of 1:58:26 Mets where my father was born but I've I've been born and raised and worked all my life here in the United States I 1:58:35 understood a good bit I thought about capitalism how it would evolve these 1:58:42 last 10 years maybe even 15 years now has been a surprise to me I did not 1:58:52 if I had believed in forecasting I wouldn't anymore because I would have been so far off that I would 1:59:00 have questioned the whole project I mean I didn't believe in it I don't know how anyone manages that 1:59:08 uh but the last 15 years have been a a development that has transformed my life 1:59:16 transformed a good bit of my thinking um given me opportunities to 1:59:23 apply the philosophic and economic training I had as a young person in ways 1:59:29 that I could not and did not foresee so it would be even Wilder for me to 1:59:35 suggest some scenario coming down the pike I've been so out of 1:59:41 it I think you have to learn how to adjust and cope you 1:59:47 know the name of this studio is is in English becoming is a very key concept 1:59:55 for Hegel being is becoming and what that means everything is changing a 2:00:02 maximum of Marx's Marx was once interviewed by a New York newspaper and 2:00:07 his answer was you know what is it that you study he says change everything 2:00:13 changes well RI Rick Rick I'm glad that I get to call you Rick now please um 2:00:18 this has been absolutely terrific as always I'm so grateful for your time I've learned a lot but we need to get 2:00:23 you to your next appointment so telion we'll meet again to talk about whatever 2:00:29 happens after this but again thank you so much R my pleasure pleasure 2:00:36 [Music] Will Trump or Harris Win 2024? Point Blank we T we spoke last time about how you're not a soothsayer or a prognosticator you can't tell the future but what do you think will be the outcome of this election well I hate to do this to you but I need to insist on not being able to predict having been born and grown up in the United States all my life even though my first languages are French and German because of my French father and my German mother my father was French and German comes from a place called um is it interesting I'm blocking it out uh on the border of France in the alsas region Mets the city of Mets where my father was born but I've I've been born and raised and worked all my life here in the United States I understood a good bit I thought about capitalism how it would evolve these last 10 years maybe even 15 years now has been a surprise to me I did not if I had believed in forecasting I wouldn't anymore because I would have been so far off that I would 1:59:00 have questioned the whole project I mean I didn't believe in it I don't know how anyone manages that uh but the last 15 years have been a a development that has transformed my life transformed a good bit of my thinking um given me opportunities to apply the philosophic and economic training I had as a young person in ways that I could not and did not foresee so it would be even Wilder for me to suggest some scenario coming down the pike I've been so out of it I think you have to learn how to adjust and cope you know the name of this studio is is in English becoming is a very key concept for Hegel being is becoming and what that means everything is changing a 2:00:02 maximum of Marx's Marx was once interviewed by a New York newspaper and his answer was you know what is it that you study he says change everything changes well RI Rick Rick I'm glad that I get to call you Rick now please um this has been absolutely terrific as always I'm so grateful for your time I've learned a lot but we need to get you to your next appointment so telion we'll meet again to talk about whatever happens after this but again thank you so much R my pleasure pleasure [Music]

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