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THE UKRAINE WAR TIMES RADIO INTERVIEWS PHILIP INGRAM Times Radio: Xi losing trust in Putin as the Russian leader fails to tackle the Kursk incursion \| Philip Ingram PLAY YOUTUBE VIDEO Original article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvAdd4Oefrk Peter Burgess COMMENTARY Peter Burgess
Xi losing trust in Putin as the Russian leader fails to tackle the Kursk incursion \| Philip Ingram Times Radio 913K subscribers Aug 16, 2024 Frontline \| The War in Ukraine and Global Security 'China will be sitting there, Xi Jinping with his eyebrows raised, saying ‘are my investments in Russia safe?’' Former British military intelligence officer Philip Ingram shares his analysis of the Kursk incursion and what could come next on this latest episode of Frontline. 📻 Listen to Times Radio - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/radio 📍 Subscribe to our channel - / @listentotimesradio 🗞 Subscribe to The Times https://www.thetimes.co.uk/subscribe/... 📲 Get the free Times Radio app https://www.thetimes.co.uk/radio/how-... People 3 people Vladimir Putin President of Russia (1999–2008, 2012–present) Philip Ingram Xi Jinping General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party since 2012 Transcript 0:00 it's weakening his power base when it comes to the relationship that he's building up with the International Community um that he's relying on for a business um and be military material supports with China with Iran with North 0:12 Korea and elsewhere um and China will be 0:15 sort of sitting there Xing ping will his 0:18 eyebrows raised going um okay are my 0:20 investments in Russia by um supporting 0:23 them tacitly are are they safe what do I 0:26 need to do so it'll be reducing 0:28 confidence in that and confidence across 0:30 the bricks community that that Russia's 0:32 part of hello and welcome to Frontline 0:33 for times radio I'm James Hansen and 0:36 today we're talking about the latest on 0:37 the war in Ukraine and Ukraine's ongoing 0:40 incursion into the KK region of Russia 0:42 and I'm delighted to be joined by a 0:44 regular guest here on Frontline former 0:46 Colonel Philip Ingram MBE a former 0:48 military intelligence officer with more 0:50 than 26 years of experience in the UK armed forces and a former NATO planner he's now a respected military analyst and commentator Philip always a pleasure welcome back to front line good to be 1:00 back James well here we are over a week in now to Ukraine's incursion into the Cur region of Russia what is your assessment of how it's going yeah I think I think it's slightly more than an incursion I think i' I'd almost refer to it as a mini Invasion um and I think it's going exceptionally well you know it's caught the Russians on the back foot um there it's clear that there wasn't a strong military presence there but the Border guards are down to the FSB the Russian Security Services and they've been caught on the Hop as well 1:26 so it's embarrassed Putin it's 1:28 embarrassed the their security 1:30 commanders it's embarrassed their 1:32 military commanders it's sending a clear 1:34 message to the Russians because they 1:36 can't keep this quiet it's in Russia as 1:38 well and it's given a morale boost to 1:40 the ukrainians we'll come on to for how 1:42 long Ukraine can hold onto the territory 1:44 it's captured in the moment because that is one of the key questions currently what do you think the main objective of the incursion or Invasion call it what you will is from a Ukrainian standpoint this is this is difficult the ukrainians have planned this and built it up with a lot of secrecy around which is exactly 2:00 what they should be doing it's the only way that they're going to achieve success and we don't know what their final objective is we don't know what in military planning terms you'd call their uh limit of exploitation is so we don't know how far they're going to go they will be restricted by the number of troops that they can put into the area the um logistic lines that that they've got and resupply that's in there because if they start to overstretch themselves and put themselves too thinly on the ground then they're very vulnerable and the Russians will notice that and the 2:29 russal will exploit that and that could 2:31 be that could be very costly to the 2:33 ukrainians um I think they've already 2:35 achieved their objectives um there the 2:38 objectives are I think there there are 2:41 multiple ones one it's sending a clear 2:43 message to the International Community 2:44 that um you the invasion of Russia which 2:46 was a Putin's Red Line um has been 2:49 crossed and Putin hasn't been able to do 2:51 anything about it so there's no reason 2:53 why the International Community should 2:54 not remove the restrictions on using 2:56 longer range weapons to attack um areas 3:00 where the Russians are launching attacks into Ukraine that's what they've been after the whole way through um it's sending a message to Putin you we can think out the box and we can come and take the fight to you you're not dictating the term so they've wrestled the initiative back again and it's it's um sending that message out to the Russian people as well because there are now refugees coming from the KK region um and other regions close to it that are heading up towards Moscow and it's 3:25 in the Russian press it's causing 3:27 commentators to sort of question 3:28 Vladimir Putin it's weakening his 3:30 position um it it's putting a big morale 3:35 shot into um the ukrainians Ukrainian 3:38 military who you have been fighting hard 3:41 in the East and being pushed back slowly 3:43 but now there's this big boost that's 3:46 going in there and that that that can 3:48 only help and then there's the military 3:49 implications you what it's doing is it's forcing the Russians to have to take some of the reserve forces that were sitting in the East if they were needed and potentially some of the forces that were engaged in the East or up in the 4:01 haave um attack that they put in and move them around to try and deal with this but they're coming in an ad ad hoc groups that's never a good way to approach um this sort of thing so the ukrainians are sitting there smiling at the moment and I think they they've achieved the main things that they need to achieve what else they're going to do 4:18 how long they're going to stay um if if 4:20 if they're going to stay I don't know I 4:22 suppose also having a foothold inside 4:24 Russian territory means that drone 4:25 strikes can hit deeper into Russia and 4:28 hit Russian military targets well it's 4:30 it's it it can give drone strikes deeper 4:32 into Russia now the ukrainians are 4:33 having some success in getting their 4:35 drones you know thousands of kilometers 4:37 into Russia without the Russians 4:38 identifying them but it also um is allowing the ukrainians to push their air defenses up into um these areas and therefore that is pushing the Russian aircraft further back um because there's the great danger of of them being shot down um and it and it's also panicking the Russian Defense Forces and those air defense forces that are Hast moving in 5:00 and we've seen how when Russian um Air Defense Forces panic in Crimea in particular they tend to shoot their own aircraft on um and you this is where I see this as a complete Master Stroke by the ukrainians almost certainly planned by um my favorite General in the UK Ukrainian military General banov who heads their Military Intelligence organization yeah just talk a bit more about General banov because I know you're a big fan of him and his strategic decisions um just talk us 5:25 through some of the key ones he's made 5:27 already in this war well you he's the 5:30 the the the big one that hasn't really been talked about a lot is he's brought in second world war type Special Operations executive um operations across Russia and across occupied um Ukraine so those are um the factories that produce military kits suddenly Catching Fire it's the drones being fired at um airfields across across Russia it's the drones flying into um uh oil refineries and elsewhere it's the attack in the kers bridge it's the um 6:02 attack on logistic dumps um and Commando raids into Crimea it's the um the the way that the ukrainians have dealt with the Russian Black Sea Fleet um and you know not having a Navy but they've managed to sink over a third of it and put out of action almost half of it and push the rest of the Navy scared off into Russian ports and they hav't been able to affect um what is uh the the the international grip and food resupplies going in going in out of Ukraine in the 6:32 way the Russians had said they wanted to 6:34 so it's all taking pressure off and he's 6:35 thinking outside the box he's bringing 6:37 in all of these different operations and 6:39 he almost certainly masterminded the um 6:43 couple of raids that went into the 6:44 belgar rod um region of of Russia last year by the the Russian Legion those are Russian ethnic Russians who are loyal to Ukraine and are fighting for Ukraine and they have their own little formation and of course they say they wer under the command of the Russian mil of the 7:01 Ukrainian military but um you know General banov would probably say that he's he's he's military but he's not military because he's he heads their National Intelligence Military Intelligence organization and then you know he would have been behind this but he will been key in planning it but this 7:18 is probably the first time we've seen 7:19 him linking in with the Ukrainian 7:21 regular troops so this is General 7:24 cersi's first big push uh and Bo is it 7:28 success from what we've seen so far it 7:29 could turn very bad if they're not 7:32 careful well let's come on to that what 7:33 are the risks here for Ukraine yeah the 7:36 the big the biggest risk is if they 7:38 overstretch themselves um and the 7:39 Russians managed to then um be able to 7:42 concentrate their force and somehow or other attack in and um H have a massive effect against what seems to be from the reporting I'm seeing are Ukraine's better troops that they're using in this and if they get attacked by the Russians that could have uh a longer term impact 8:00 on Ukraine's ability to um maintain the initiative they've now got back so they have to watch that very closely but what they've done is not something that they've done in the spare of the moment it'll have taken months and months and months of planning it'll have taken months of getting all the troops in the right place and making sure that they've got all the right equipment ammunition and everything else match that against the threat um they'll have had probing 8:23 operations going in with special forces 8:25 to check on everything and there's lots 8:28 of reports that there special force are 8:30 leading into the different areas and 8:31 they're probing to find um the 8:34 boundaries between different formations 8:35 or different groupings exploiting that 8:38 then the regular Ukrainian troops are 8:39 moving up to deal with it and we're seeing them using some of the the better Western Equipment as they as they go in so it's the biggest threat is that overstretch and the the Russians getting to a position where they can destroy too 8:51 much of Ukraine's greater capability but ukrainians will know that so they'll have a plan in place I mean it appears like the pace of the Ukrainian Advance has slowed 9:00 way you them toate they've taken Asos to into Russia further there's three things that I think they can do the first one is um consolidate on the land that they've taken um and try and defend that now you know it's quite a big area you know it's it's over a thousand square kilometers um that you hugely more than 9:22 the Russians have taken in the last 9:24 couple of years um but to do that to 9:27 hold that properly if the Russians 9:28 managed to get good formations in is 9:30 going to be really difficult indeed so I 9:32 think the other option could be that 9:34 what they'll do is they'll withdraw back 9:36 to hold some of the territory it still 9:39 gives them a negotiating stance it still 9:41 gives them that message to Putin um it 9:44 it and we we have to remember KK region 9:46 is is quite interesting there's a a good percent of the population there are what you could describe almost as ethnic ukrainians you know ukrainians their first language they they speak that and you know they it would give um president zinsky legitimacy he said I'm I'm 10:01 looking after my people in the same way the Russians um said that about about eastern Ukraine with the ethnic Russian speakers and that would be a bit of a a words play and playing off Putin with with his own words or the other thing that they could do is it could withdraw completely um and come back into Ukrainian territory and then send the clear message out to the the International Community that we don't want to capture um Russian territory we want to show Putin that we can um invade if we need to um we can therefore go in 10:31 and take something to negotiate if if 10:33 you want to do um territory Swap and we 10:36 can take more than you can take and 10:38 we'll we'll quite happily do that then 10:40 um but saying to the International Community we don't want to do this we just want to defend to be able to defend our country and therefore please take the restrictions off the use of um uh the weapons that you're supplying so we can have a proper military effect on that it wouldn't surprise me if they if they do that um because they haven't lost many troops and stuff at the moment 11:01 from again the anecdotal reporting is all we're get we're getting out from it um it's too early to tell which option they're going to take has it surprised you the Russian response that they haven't been able to push back the ukrainians more up to this point um yes and no um yes because I expected the Russians to have had proper defenses close to their borders especially after the belgar rod raids and have mobile 11:30 reserves in a position where as soon as 11:32 they indicate they get an indication of 11:34 something happening they can move that 11:35 mobile Reserve into trans stabilize it 11:37 and hold any Invasion Force back that 11:39 doesn't seem to exist um and what that 11:42 suggests to me is that the Russians are um in a much worse position than we have been estimating when it comes to their military capability the formations that they've got to hand the equipment that they've got access to their their their um weapons and ammunition and and equipment and that reflects on you the 12:01 Russians having to go to North Korea to get troops North Korea to get ammunition North Korea to get pieces of equipment to Iran to get missiles and drones and all the rest of it so it's just um reinforcing that but it's suggesting they're in an even worse position than than they are um and Putin seems to be not responding in a direct way and and seems to be floundering a little bit he hasn't come out with a clear plan and artic ated it he seems to be sticking 12:30 his head in the sound a little bit which 12:32 again surprises me that he hasn't taken 12:34 charge and is suggesting that he doesn't 12:36 know what way to turn he doesn't know 12:39 he's he's been completely dislocated by 12:41 the Ukrainian action and it's it's 12:43 caught him off guard and caught his 12:44 inner circle off guard um I think we'll start to see um once the Russians have managed to stop the ukrainians from advancing or the ukrainians decide to stop advancing um I think we'll see Putin starting to take some harsher actions um a to try and push the 13:00 ukrainians back but harsher actions in Moscow against those that he will have perceived as failing to protect um his homeland we'll come on to Putin in just a moment um do you think it is feasible Philip that we may see further raids incursions by the ukrainians across different parts of the Russian border um I don't say it as impossible you know 13:22 the the trouble is now they've done it 13:25 so the Russians are going to be going 13:26 where are they going to do it next so 13:28 you only get you only get get to um try 13:30 and uh create a surprise once now the 13:33 ukrainians have clearly probed they 13:35 probed in the belgaro region a couple of 13:37 times they that would have been sending 13:40 a message potentially to the Russians 13:41 that if Ukraine's going to do that 13:43 they're going to do that there so they 13:44 might have put some more defensive 13:46 capability there and then you go in somewhere else I don't think the Russians the Russians are very good at learning lessons and learning very quickly so I think they could do it again there's nothing to stop them doing it again but this is the one time for 14:01 them to have that true success because surprise is critical to it Vladimir Putin let's come on to him and his position is this the biggest threat to his power since the attempted Mutiny led by Yen progan last year well I don't see it as an immediate threat to his par but what it's doing is it's weakening his par base um there isn't a natural successor that's coming in we're not hearing noises from anyone that's trying to push them out but what it's doing is 14:29 is weakening his power base um within um 14:33 the oligarchs that are keeping him in 14:35 place so it wouldn't surprise me if 14:36 there little conversations going on 14:37 behind closed doors going right how do 14:39 we get them out and who's next to take over and you know all of the some form of internal coup it's weakening his par base when it comes to the relationship that he's building up with the International Community um that he's relying on for a business um and B military material supports with China with Iran with North Korea and elsewhere um and China will be sort of sitting 15:01 there their Xin ping will have his eyebrows raised going okay are my investments in Russia by um supporting them tacitly are are they safe what do I need to do so it'll be reducing confidence in that and confidence across the bricks community that that Russia's part of and it's also raising um doubts amongst the Russian people you the war has come into Russia and the Russian 15:23 people have been trying to put it out of 15:25 their minds going no this is somewhere 15:27 else this is Ukraine Ukraine's brought 15:29 it on themselves we're trying to protect 15:30 the PO Ukrainian people from these nasty 15:33 NATO people that are clearly influencing 15:35 them um but it's it's happening in 15:37 Ukraine it's not happening in Russia now it's happening in Russia so it's you it's we live in interesting times I think it also undermines Putin's brand that he tries to put about which is that he is a winner I was speaking the other day on front lines George Grill was the times his defense correspondent he was making the point Putin won't even go to visit the site of a flood in Russia or a terrorist atrocity because it's associating himself with a disaster with 16:00 with a tragedy and he wants to be seen purely as a man who brings success and who brings Victory and until now you could argue that Russia under Putin was more feared than at any point since the end of the Cold War but now he's the person who's presided over the largest invasion of Russian territory since the second world war that is a massive 16:18 failure oh it is a massive failure and 16:20 it's the only Invasion by non-nuclear 16:23 Nation against a nuclear Nation ever um 16:27 and he has lost the the ability to 16:29 properly control the press and the 16:31 messaging that's going out across Russia 16:34 so you know it's it's put a big crack in 16:37 that level of control and with 16:39 everything it's all about getting cracks into different things and then exploiting those and trying to wiggle them and make them into Fishers and make them bigger um ukrainians will be trying to do that as much as they possibly can so it wouldn't surprise me if this is Phase One of a number of different phases of other activities that they're going to deal with so you if I were the 17:01 ukrainians um I'd consolidate somewhere in what I've got there and then switch very quickly to Crimea and take the the K bridge out again um you destroy that and start to put pressure on on on Crimea you you do that then the political pressure and the military pressure that would be in Putin would be magnified to the next order um I can't see the ukrainians have you doing this in isolation there is more to come an awful lot more to come uh and that be fascinating to watch is one of the most significant things to come out of this Philip the fact that the long-standing fear that Ukraine's Western allies have had that if you take the fight to directly to Russia either through longrange strikes or indeed through an incursion and Invasion such as what we've seen from Ukraine in the past week you risk escalation to the extent that potentially Putin uses tactical nuclear weapons now you know we don't to be complacent Anything Could Happen a cornered man is a dangerous man yeah but it looks as if those threats from Putin are pretty empty as things stand well every rare line that's that Putin has 18:00 put out there has been crossed you know he he put a red line out about Western Equipment coming in about Western tanks being supplied about Western missiles being used but Western aircraft being delivered um every time it's that red Line's been out there the West has gone oh we have to be really careful and then we cross the red line and all of a sudden they go oh well he hasn't done anything so that that that opens the the 18:23 not quite the floodgates but it opens 18:24 the gates to supply the ukrainians a 18:26 little bit more of what they need um 18:28 this is another red line that's been 18:29 crossed and um Putin could use a 18:33 tactical nuclear weapon um there's no 18:35 talk about that and interestingly he 18:36 hasn't come out with a lot of nuclear 18:39 rhetoric um if he if he and therefore I 18:42 think he's a long long long long way off 18:44 doing that because if he does that he 18:46 knows that he will instantly lose the support of those countries that he's relying on because they could not afford to be associated with um sanctioning um you the positive use of a nuclear weapon 19:00 in any shape or form and China couldn't afford the sanctions that would then potentially come in from the West if they continue to support Russia Iran is sanctioned enough at the moment but you they're focused on on other bits and pieces so that would be his weapon of 19:13 Last Resort and if he did use it he 19:14 would probably drop it um drop one on a 19:18 small tactical um weapon somewhere 19:21 inside Russia's Borders or into the 19:24 Black Sea as a message to say you know 19:28 it it would be a a test he'd put it out 19:31 as but um under you under the table 19:34 would say the next one will be Kei let's 19:36 negotiate I don't think he's anywhere 19:38 near that at the moment what have you 19:39 made of the western response so far it 19:41 was interesting President Biden said 19:43 yesterday I believe that he's been in 19:44 constant contact with ke over the past 19:46 week the White House has stressed they 19:47 weren't involved in the planning of this operation and I mean the UK has come out and said that that it's okay for Ukraine to use British supplied weapons on this operation in Russia but not long range missiles what have you made of the 20:01 response there's a mixed response going through and and and as anything as it comes out you will see differentials and and people trying to exploit those differentials the the use of UK weapons um in inside Russia and all every country has to strictly speaking authorize where the the the the weapons that they Supply can be can be used so we've seen American weapons used we've 20:22 seen British weapons used with or or 20:23 vehicles and all the rest of it so they 20:25 would have tacitly said that's not a 20:27 problem um the UK has been supplying 20:30 weapons that have been used to attack 20:32 Russian Targets in Russia for months and 20:35 months and months the reason why some of 20:38 the longer range weapons and in 20:39 particular when we're talking with the 20:40 UK it's the Storm Shadow or the French 20:43 version which is the scalp um U being 20:45 used is not all of the components in it are 100% British so we get some of them from France and the there'll probably be other countries in there every country has to agree to um its use whenever you do your um uh your export license and 21:01 authorize what where it can be used and where it can't be and therefore it's trying to get um permission from all of the different countries and I I think France is a sticking point in this and we've got the political difficulties that are going on your domestic politics influences what's happening Us weapons domestic politics is influencing as 21:19 we've seen the whole way through how Us 21:21 weapons are being used or when money is 21:23 being made available and all the rest of 21:24 it the UK has had this reputation of 21:27 leading the way we were the first to 21:29 supply main battle tanks we only supplyed 14 but it wasn't the tanks that are going to make the difference it was getting over that political Red Line um and enabling other countries to suddenly go oh nothing's happened there therefore we can do the same um and that I think is what's happening with the UK now um publicly saying we can use the ukrainians can use um British um equipment and British weapons inside Russia um and it's giving them sort of political top cover we're the first so 22:01 none of the other countries are are going to be embarrassed by being the first and potentially um causing themselves greater domestic political issues it's it's complicated when the politics gets into it a lot of people have speculated this is designed to strengthen Ukraine's negotiating position in the event of future peace 22:18 talks I think Putin himself said that 22:19 the other day but to me it also seems 22:21 like it's sending a message to Ukraine's 22:23 Western allies which is look if you back 22:24 us we can win this and Russia is not as 22:27 powerful as some people fear yeah oh uh 22:29 100% you know I think I think it's too 22:31 early for it to be um something unless 22:34 unless ukrainians dig in and hold the 22:36 territory um and have got a clear plan 22:38 as to when the negotiations are going to 22:40 be I think we're at least 12 more likely 22:43 24 and more likely more than that months 22:46 off getting into position where you 22:48 could get some form of negotiated 22:50 settlement and a negotiated settlement 22:51 would have to see Putin um uh 22:54 withdrawing from the internationally 22:55 recognized borders of um of Ukraine 22:58 including Crimea he's not in that 23:01 position himself to even think about that at the moment but he could easily be forced into it if there's more territory taken or it's held for longer periods of time but that will take time um and it is sending that clear message out to the the rest of the International Community you know we've we've we've done this now you we're we're in this 23:19 position give us the wherewithal but 23:21 again when it comes to giving the where 23:22 withal you whenever 23:25 Russia carried out its reinvasion 23:27 February two and a half years ago 23:30 everyone was saying just give them as 23:31 many tanks and give them as many um 23:33 aircraft as they as they need and and 23:35 they they'll go and win this if we'd 23:36 done that at that time they'd have lost 23:38 a lot of them and they' they'd be losing 23:40 the war even more than um you people are trying to suggest they're doing the moment they're not losing they the ukrainians are doing a fantastic job and I'd argue that they they are winning but it is a long slow process because they need to understand how to not just operate the pieces of equipment but to fight the pieces of equipment and not just to fight the pieces of equipment you know as a tank or an armored 24:01 personnel carrier or an infantry fighting vehicle or an artillery piece or an F-16 aircraft they need to learn how to fight them all together you if you're putting a British Army formation who's training all of the time through to be able to do that at Brigade level it's a two-year cycle you know and we're expecting ukrainians not just to do that but to do it with equipment that they have not used beforehand that's going to change the 24:26 whole Doctrine and the way they do 24:28 things you know a a Ukrainian Soviet 24:30 tank at a crew of three a western Tank's 24:32 got a crew of four you're changing 24:33 Dynamics down at at small Team level and 24:36 expecting that to then grw up to 24:37 formation level as you're working 24:38 together and doing it in contact whilst 24:41 they're fighting a high-intensity war 24:43 with you arguably on paper was you know 24:47 supposed to be the second most capable military in the world um what the ukrainians are doing is phenomenal and we couldn't do it and how transformative in effect will it have on Ukrainian morale which is always a difficult thing 25:01 to measure and to kind of work out how significant it is in terms of operations on the ground but clearly you know a lot of you know great reporters from the West including from the times have have been out in Ukraine over recent weeks and months speaking to Ukrainian troops and before this incursion there was a 25:15 general sense that they were tired lot 25:17 of the troops had been on the front line 25:19 for too long they hadn't had enough rest 25:21 and there was a sense that because 25:22 Russia were making incremental gains in 25:24 the East that maybe they were on the 25:25 back foot this must have fundamentally 25:28 changed the way Ukrainian troops and 25:30 Ukrainian people are thinking about the 25:32 war oh very much so and you once morale starts to go down it's very difficult to stop it from going down and you know the pressure that the Ukrainian troops have been under in the East has been phenomenal you know the the fact that the um counter offensive started last year didn't achieve the same sort of territorial gains as the had happened whenever the ukrainians retook um hon um territory down around there and then har um or Hoy before heon um and and the way 26:02 that that was being pushed out through 26:03 International um commentators as as a 26:05 failure and then you know the the 26:07 ukrainians the the fight for back Moot 26:09 and they they stopped then the 26:10 ukrainians started Advance a little bit 26:12 but then they didn't have the equipment 26:14 the wherewith all the Russians Chang 26:15 their tactics used Glide bombs which are 26:19 horrendous whenever they go into trench 26:20 positions um and started to push the 26:23 ukrainians back slowly um morale was 26:26 going down morale would go down anywhere 26:28 they this will have changed that 26:30 completely you know people on the front 26:31 line who are still fighting in the East 26:33 who've got nothing to do with what's 26:34 going up um going go going on up in in 26:38 the the KK region and all the rest of it 26:40 um who will have been tired um and 26:44 starting to give up almost before um the the raid went in will now be sitting there boyed up and going oh wow we we we can do this so it's giving them that um moral component of their fighting power back again that Spirit back again which um you know I've I've experienced that 27:00 in different operations and it's amazing how you know a little thing can change that and how much difference that makes to your application of what you're doing in the front line and this is why I'm pretty certain this is Phase One of a number of things that the ukrainians are doing they need to exploit the success they need to exploit the impact that it's having on their troops and the morale it's having on um the Ukrainian people as well because they're getting tired when the history books are written about the war in Ukraine the events of the past week was so going to take up a pretty big chapter oh very much so you and this is something that is going to be studied in staff colleges across the world um as they prepare their senior military leaders for decades to come you the history is being written at the minute a military history in a way that um we we I still refer to sunu who is a great Chinese sixth Century General philosopher um I think we'll still be referring to banov in a similar time period Philip Ingram always a play thank you so much for joining us today on front line thank you

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